| 14 JUL 2006 at 4:26pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | yes you were lying! maybe you thought you weren't, but you were! i on the other hand was telling the truth, when i was telling everyone not to listen to that crap and that you'll be making another game soon!
now the only thing left is to answer the question: will it be better than black mirror?! (inside joke ppl, so no need to start talking about black mirror!)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 4:30pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Riven was better than Black Mirror! (you asked for it [smiley=laughing.gif])
Anyway, I'll be using this thread to keep you updated (as opposed to starting new ones) so please don't go off topic.
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 6:56pm |
SusanGuild Master
Posts : 5485
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Yay, Alkis! [smiley=clap.gif]
Why does the official website give a founding date of the beginning of April, yet we're just hearing about this now? [smiley=raise_eyebrow.gif]
I miss my Bubba: 1986 - 2006.
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 7:13pm |
qriousPrivate Detective
Posts : 524
Joined: 8 AUG 2003
Status : Offline | i like the logo of the company, it reminds me of stephens king insomnia :
[b][size=19][url]www.adventureadvocate.gr[/url][/size][/b]&&[b][size=10]The biggest adventure source in Greece[/size][/b]
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 7:46pm |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4038
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | Good luck with it, Alkis! I like the early screenshots of Diamonds in the Rough.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 8:50pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Susan (14 JUL 2006 6:56pm)
Why does the official website give a founding date of the beginning of April, yet we're just hearing about this now? [smiley=raise_eyebrow.gif]
Sorry for the secrecy... I wanted to hire some co-workers and begin production so that I had something to show you first. I needed to give you something more than an "I founded a company, yay".
Originally Posted By qrious (14 JUL 2006 7:13pm)
i like the logo of the company, it reminds me of stephens king insomnia :
I must have a different edition than yours cause my book cover looks nothing like it. [img]http://pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/209192.gif[/img]
But since the three Fates are mentioned in Insomnia, you're probably right.
I hope you all like the web site, I was going for something really original instead of the usual rectangular pages.
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 8:56pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Great news, Alkis.
I look forward to your new game.
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 10:21pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Yes, great news Alkis, I wish you all the best with your exciting new project.
And in light of your openness about accepting constructive criticism...
As a longtime, professional art director who understands the design process and fundamental principles used in all forms of commercial art for all media, I have three general, initial suggestions on how to improve your graphics by a wide margin.
First, since you are using a realistic graphic style in your new game, PLEASE have your lead character modeler lower Jason Hart's waistline and crotch at least six inches. His upper body is freakishly short relative to the length of his arms and legs, which I assume is not purposeful.
Second, you might also want to have your artist/s experiment with slightly softer shadows, especially around Jason's neck and jaws in his character closeup. I know he is lean / wirey but right now those parts of his anatomy look terribly drawn or tense, which conflicts with the relaxed, friendly expression on his face. In other words, he appears quite unnatural.
Third and last, have them try some different, directional lighting effects (both ambient natural and artificial) to avert flat looking scenes. Whether it is sunlight, firelight, lamplight or a combination, test some subtle, creative filter effects and use stronger, primary light sources from different angles. Study the classic techniques of the better illustrators, animators and cinematographers in creating mood through the clever manipulation of light. This alone will take all your graphics to a whole new depth of realism and a higher level of professionalism.
Correcting these basic mistakes in the preliminary designs now, during the earliest stages of development, and a little later in the initial master artwork will set a better standard for all that follows. Using these more sophisticated production values as guidelines throughout the process will then go a long ways toward making the final product a lot more polished and professional in the end.
I hope you understand where this is coming from Alkis, as I really do want you to succeed and this is my most specialized area of professional expertise - one that I have practiced very successfully for over thirty years. In offering these criticisms freely, I hope to aid you in creating the finest game possible - one that really will deserve high scores, healthy profits and lots of praise.
In any event, good luck and have fun!
Cheers, Terry
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 11:23pm |
ShadowWalkerJourneyman
Posts : 997
Joined: 27 JUL 2005
Status : Offline | Hello There
The advise that Terry has given you is indispensable. Your shots show great care in the making of your game. I do not know about programming...yet.
And I would not presume to tell you how to make the game. I can only give you some of my "ideas" as a perspective of someone that likes to see very realistically depicted games.
The following "suggestion" I gave it to another game company programmer. He also wanted to make very realistic looking games.
My "suggestion" is that the graphic scenes are too perfect......
I do not know what the possibilities of doing this are, and even if it is possible.
But.........
Examine real life......
Floors show discoloration upon the most traveled paths. Walls show some dirt in areas where most likely people work and touch it. The barbecue bricks can be a "little" dirty and chipped on the edges.
The fence is a little uneven here and there.
The cork board shows pin holes here and there and even little rips in the cork.
Chairs have shiny sides where people mostly touch and put their hands at. Their hands have polished the wood more where it is handled.
Just a few passing thoughts. Inperfection makes it look more believable.
Multiple picture frames are slightly skew, and their cover glass shows fingerprints.
The reason I say this, is I do not know if by keeping it in the back of your mind, you might slowly attempt to make these small inperfections a habit in your gamemaking...just suttle differences thats all.
Overall. I have to say that you have remarkable skill in making this game.
Wish you the best!
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 11:43pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Great suggestion SW and one I was going to offer if Alkis showed any interest in further advice on design / art direction.
It is all those little details (usually in the form of imperfections) that lend depth and realism to any theatrical scene. The best filmmakers and game creators spend lots of time decorating or rendering every set with lots of little items and flaws that exist everywhere in real life.
Perfectly ordered, sterile, symmetrical environments only exist in cartoons, clean rooms, hospital operating theaters and certain research labs. Virtually every place else is at least a little messy and dirty.
No need to overdo it though as a small, new developer can only afford to invest so much time / money in the little details. But at least some do need to be included in any realistic setting.
Cheers, Terry
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 12:05am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | I wish you good luck with this venture Alkis. I love to see people doing what they believe in.
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 1:51am |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | Way to go, Alkis! No worries about me getting the game just because you're here. I'm still trying to save up money for Scratches to no avail...
Regarding the graphics comments above, can I add my two cents? In this screenshot:
[img]http://www.justadventure.com/Upcoming_Releases/DiamondsInTheRough/screen4.jpg[/img]
I would assume that the light bulb dangling from the ceiling is supposed to be the only light in the room, yet the character is being lit from his left, not from behind.
Anyway, I speak as someone who has trouble using the html tags in my posts here, so don't think of me as an expert programming critic.
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 10:16am |
RevliskciPrivate Detective
Posts : 724
Joined: 9 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Heh...talking about imperfections, that screenshot shows there is one...just look at the bricks showing through the wall
Congratulations on starting your own studio Alkis and good luck on making excellent games. Hardly anybody ever gets it right the first time, so just use the criticism as a building block to improving your design.
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 1:32pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Thank you all for your wishes and advice. Your comments are very useful and I'll make sure my artists gets them.
I should have mentioned that Jason's lighting/shadowing is temporary, we haven't really worked on it yet, I just threw Jason in the middle of the rooms to make some screenshots. That is probably why he looks out of place in some of them.
I generally want imperfections in the rooms, but it really depends on what you want the room to look like. Jason's house is practically brand new, and I did want it to look spotless. Other screens do have imperfections (such as the wall and floor in the storage room, as Revliskci noticed). Don't worry, not all screens will look like that.
Out of what you all said, the only thing I'm skeptic about is Jason's waistline/crotch thing.. We used a real human to get some sort of primitive motion capture, a friend of mine that had the looks I was going for (6'4'', fair hair/skin color, slightly muscular) and I can guarantee to you that he looks exactly like that! He was freakishly long legs. Does he looks terrible unnatural to you, Terry? I reckon it's hard to judge by a still screenshot.. I think it looks better when you get to see the actual game in full screen, with the character walking around.
I'd really like to hear what you think of the "Thoughts" idea. I believe it will be qute original and it will enhance the gameplay considerably. But while the strong point of Other Worlds was the puzzles, DITR focuses more on the story and the character development. I am confident that the story will be discussed a lot when the game is out. Not that the puzzles will be secondary!
Oh and this is kind of my second time, so I do hope to get it right. Although some people did get it right on their first try (Ragnar Torquist, Agustin Cordes for instance).
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 3:04pm |
Chris.Schattenjger
Posts : 1842
Joined: 8 MAR 2005
Status : Online | Good work Alkis!
I like the way that Jason's kinda...geeky looking
I'm sure once you've sorted out the lighting it'll look great.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the character's proportions but, like Terry said, he's standing bolt-upright like a soldier. Relax the shoulders, make him more slouchy. Move the feet a bit further apart and pointing outwards more. Go out and watch how teenage boys stand and walk.
The graphics look quite Syberia-like. I hope we'll see some of those little background animations that brought Syberia to life
...not to be confused with Keira Knightley
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 3:19pm |
Chris.Schattenjger
Posts : 1842
Joined: 8 MAR 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By qrious (14 JUL 2006 7:13pm)
i like the logo of the company, it reminds me of stephens king insomnia :
Wasn't it Rose Madder?
...not to be confused with Keira Knightley
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 3:44pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Syberia-like! I don't know about that, but thanks for the compliment anyway.
Noted about Jason's posture. There is another character in our web site if you want to take a look.
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 9:54pm |
Chris.Schattenjger
Posts : 1842
Joined: 8 MAR 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By alkis21 (15 JUL 2006 3:44pm)
There is another character in our web site if you want to take a look.
Oops, didn't notice the full-body William before!
I can't see any problems in that picture. I think the "stiffness" is an advantage for that character--he's supposed to be creepy, right? For some reason he reminds me of Agent Smith (except for the face, which reminds me of George Bush ) I can imagine him speaking in that sort of monotone voice.
...not to be confused with Keira Knightley
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 10:36pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By alkis21 (15 JUL 2006 1:32pm)
Thank you all for your wishes and advice. Your comments are very useful and I'll make sure my artists gets them.
I should have mentioned that Jason's lighting/shadowing is temporary, we haven't really worked on it yet, I just threw Jason in the middle of the rooms to make some screenshots. That is probably why he looks out of place in some of them.
I generally want imperfections in the rooms, but it really depends on what you want the room to look like. Jason's house is practically brand new, and I did want it to look spotless. Other screens do have imperfections (such as the wall and floor in the storage room, as Revliskci noticed). Don't worry, not all screens will look like that.
Out of what you all said, the only thing I'm skeptic about is Jason's waistline/crotch thing.. We used a real human to get some sort of primitive motion capture, a friend of mine that had the looks I was going for (6'4'', fair hair/skin color, slightly muscular) and I can guarantee to you that he looks exactly like that! He was freakishly long legs. Does he looks terrible unnatural to you, Terry? I reckon it's hard to judge by a still screenshot.. I think it looks better when you get to see the actual game in full screen, with the character walking around.
I'd really like to hear what you think of the "Thoughts" idea. I believe it will be qute original and it will enhance the gameplay considerably. But while the strong point of Other Worlds was the puzzles, DITR focuses more on the story and the character development. I am confident that the story will be discussed a lot when the game is out. Not that the puzzles will be secondary!
Oh and this is kind of my second time, so I do hope to get it right. Although some people did get it right on their first try (Ragnar Torquist, Agustin Cordes for instance).
To answer your questions Alkis, yes I do think that Jason's waistline is too high. I know that Jason is supposed to be young and a bit gawky but he does have freakishly long legs. This is evident to me from both the side and front views. And, having judged countless animations and illustrations from preliminary B&W pencil sketches over the years, I can also assure you that my opinion of his proportions will not change when the character is in full motion or in a different stance.
On the lighting, glad to hear these were just quick, early screens and that your artist will be concentrating more on that important aspect of the graphics later in the production process. I hope he also spends more time on little details / imperfections. For instance, in the basement / storage room scene, all the coat hangers to Jason's left are perfectly aligned. I know there are some shelf systems that aid in keeping things extra neat and tidy but they are never that perfect in real life. So unless you want his home to look like obsessive-compulsive detective Adrian Monk lives there, you need to mess things up at least a little bit.
Regarding the "Thoughts" idea, it's intriguing but I would need to know more about how it is to be impleneted before commenting further.
Cheers, Terry
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 11:47pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry Penrod (15 JUL 2006 10:36pm)
To answer your questions Alkis, yes I do think that Jason's waistline is too high. I know that Jason is supposed to be young and a bit gawky but he does have freakishly long legs. This evident to me from both the side and front views. And, having judged countless animations and illustrations from preliminary B&W pencil sketches over the years, I can also assure you that my opinion of his proportions will not change when the character is in full motion or in a different stance.
Okay, I understand. I will forward your feedback.
On the lighting, glad to hear these were just quick, early screens and that your artist will be concentrating more on that important aspect of the graphics later in the production process.
I didn't explain it very well so I'd better clear things up before people start expecting too much. The backgrounds are not quick, early screens; I only referred to the character's lighting and posture as "temporary".
I hope he also spends more time on little details / imperfections. For instance, in the basement / storage room scene, all the coat hangers to Jason's left are perfectly aligned. I know there are some shelf systems that aid in keeping things extra neat and tidy but they are never that perfect in real life. So unless you want his home to look like obsessive-compulsive detective Adrian Monk lives there, you need to mess things up at least a little bit.
We'll keep that in mind, thanks.
Regarding the "Thoughts" idea, it's intriguing but I would need to know more about how it is to be impleneted before commenting further.
Think of it as a second inventory. As you progress in the game, new thoughts are added and old thoughts disappear. A simple thought is a character's name, for instance. A more complex one can be a situation, like a meeting Jason just had or something he saw.
Thoughts can be:
-Examined (example: click on a name and Jason will tell you what he thinks about that person at the time)
-Combined (example: use a name on a situation and Jason will think if there's a connection between them)
-Used anywhere else in the game, just like inventory items (example: use a situation on a person and the person may tell you something about it)
Succesful use of any of the above may open a new location ("I'd better go ask X what he thinks of that", trigger something somewhere else in the game, or even make Jason think of something new (a new thought will be added).
I like to think that the Thoughts panel will make Jason seem more real, instead of a marionette that obeys to the player's wishes. Plus, it should create some original puzzles.
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| 16 JUL 2006 at 12:53am |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
In effect Alkis, what you just described as the "Thought" idea is a lot like a typical quest journal in classic RPGs that help the player keep track of a whole bunch of observations, key dialogs, new objectives, etc. along their meandering way. These are usually flexible in that the player can choose to view them in ascending or descending chronological order. In some cases, the main missons are highlighted and the optional side quests are treated as secondary entries. Some RPGs also allow you to keep a separate text journal to add whatever in-game notes you want and area maps that allow for adding new location notes.
Of course, in most AGs, there is no real need for such a complicated set of reference tools. But I like journals that allow notetaking - especially in the longer, more complex, non-linear titles that have lots of player choices and loads of crucial details in the dialog.
One difference though is that traditional journals allow you to keep all entries and notes. They are not deleted once a key event occurs. In most RPGs though, the completed quests are marked with light colored crossthroughs or different colored text to make it easy to peruse through several long, scrollable pages quickly. Most also organize quests for past and current chapters into separate sections.
I like the basic premise but see this concept as more of a clever adaptation of an old idea than a true innovation. I also worry a bit about old thoughts disappearing once they have served their purpose. Wouldn't it be safer for you and more convenient for the player if "used" thoughts were just slightly faded, re-colored, checked-off, moved to an archival section, or indicated in some other way that clearly marks them as done, yet still allows them to be referenced from any future point in the game?
Of course I may have misunderstood the gameplay dynamics you are shooting for. If so, please disregard the above suggestions.
Cheers, Terry
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| 16 JUL 2006 at 3:15am |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | This is great news. I like your ideas on how a good adventure game should be made and I think you and your company will do just fine.
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| 16 JUL 2006 at 7:52am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Great site Alkis.
I'm looking forward to this one.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 16 JUL 2006 at 9:35pm |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Terry, as I have never played any RPGs, I'll have to take your word for it. But your description doesn't resemble to what I have in mind much. I'm not talking about either simple logging of the game's progress, or a journal feature like the one in The Longest Journey. I'm talking about actually using the thoughts as objects - call it an "object oriented thoughts panel" (hey, I like that, I might use it in the manual). *That's* the innovative part.
The only game I have played that uses a similar idea is Discworld Noir (but again, far from identical).
I like the basic premise but see this concept as more of a clever adaptation of an old idea than a true innovation.
I have no problem with that. In fact, that is how I would want the future of adventure games to be: A modernisation and polishing of old succesful ideas, instead of spasmodic attemps for new ideas that never work.
I also worry a bit about old thoughts disappearing once they have served their purpose. Wouldn't it be safer for you and more convenient for the player if "used" thoughts were just slightly faded, re-colored, checked-off, moved to an archival section, or indicated in some other way that clearly marks them as done, yet still allows them to be referenced from any future point in the game?
Again, you're thinking of it as a journal... Which is my fault for not explaining it adequately, but it's not easy to explain. Hold that thought (no pun intended) for the game's demo, you will see what I mean then.
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