| 14 JUL 2006 at 4:24pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | oh boy, the key puzzle again, and another "i didn't understand the puzzle, therefore it's a crap puzzle" case : this has been multitalked about so i'll be brief... when you look at the vase in the beginning, you look AT the vase... after you find the photo, you look IN the vase... in the beginning the vase is just another vase like all the rest around the house... so, unless you're someone that goes to a new house and starts looking inside all the vases, this puzzle should have made perfect sense
as for the ONE thing to do issue, it's funny how you mention this as a negative, yet you "absolutely loved" syberia which is the most prominent example of ONE thing to do (or should i say, mostly NO thing to do?)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 5:00pm |
JenniferMillerSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 232
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (14 JUL 2006 3:57pm)
Do reviewers on these sites, including JA use a walkthrough to beat these games and then retroactively decide whether the puzzles were thought out or not?
To answer your question Shadow, no, I normally do not use walkthroughs when I review, nor did I use one when writing the review for Scratches.
Hope that helps,
Jennifer 8-)
I am Sirrus. AND I WILL NOT BE DEFEATED!!!&&&&Visit me on MySpace!&&[url]http://www.myspace.com/BonoGirl79[/url]
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 5:29pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aya (14 JUL 2006 4:24pm)
oh boy, the key puzzle again, and another "i didn't understand the puzzle, therefore it's a crap puzzle" case : this has been multitalked about so i'll be brief... when you look at the vase in the beginning, you look AT the vase... after you find the photo, you look IN the vase... in the beginning the vase is just another vase like all the rest around the house... so, unless you're someone that goes to a new house and starts looking inside all the vases, this puzzle should have made perfect sense
as for the ONE thing to do issue, it's funny how you mention this as a negative, yet you "absolutely loved" syberia which is the most prominent example of ONE thing to do (or should i say, mostly NO thing to do?)
The key problem was minor compared to the other.. because I found the key on my own... the point was that it was just stupid in my opinion...
i absolutely loved barrow hill, dark fall, and tlj.. syberia was just average.. too easy imo.
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 8:18pm |
nytimesguyPrivate Detective
Posts : 684
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I only played a little of scratches, because a lot of other stuff was going on at the time, but I was put off by the early puzzles, including that vase puzzle. Wht I noticed as I played it was it was very poor at giving feedback,. This was something Barrow Hill did a much better job on.
Charles - Game Theorist
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| 14 JUL 2006 at 8:54pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By nytimesguy (14 JUL 2006 8:18pm)
I only played a little of scratches, because a lot of other stuff was going on at the time, but I was put off by the early puzzles, including that vase puzzle. Wht I noticed as I played it was it was very poor at giving feedback,. This was something Barrow Hill did a much better job on.
Agreed. The game expected you to blindly wander around without a clue what to do next every time some new "event" took place...
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 2:07am |
kuddlesPrivate Detective
Posts : 702
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | To paraphrase Sam Hallgren, I understand what you're saying, but you're completely wrong. There was only one time in the game where I wasn't sure what to do next, so if I didn't have the frustration you're talking about, it's more than plausible that a lot of these reviewers didn't either. I had my qualms with the review on the site, which I won't bother mentioning, but I didn't have a problem with the grade. It's easily the first "A" adventure game I've played in two years.
Also, if your problem was that you were wandering around and never knew what you were supposed to be doing, how did you know there was only one thing it allowed you to do?
[size=10][b]Games:[/b] Europa Universalis III&&[b]Music:[/b] [i]Awoo[/i] - Hidden Cameras&&[b]Series:[/b] Dexter (S1)&&[b]Movies:[/b] The Prestige (8/10) Little Miss Sunshine (5/10)&&[/size]
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 2:13am |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By kuddles (15 JUL 2006 2:07am)
To paraphrase Sam Hallgren, I understand what you're saying, but you're completely wrong. There was only one time in the game where I wasn't sure what to do next, so if I didn't have the frustration you're talking about, it's more than plausible that a lot of these reviewers didn't either. I had my qualms with the review on the site, which I won't bother mentioning, but I didn't have a problem with the grade. It's easily the first "A" adventure game I've played in two years.
Also, if your problem was that you were wandering around and never knew what you were supposed to be doing, how did you know there was only one thing it allowed you to do?
How did I know? I ended up reading a walkthrough and there was only one thing to be done next...and *gasp* that one thing "progressed" the story!(allowing the one next thing to be done!)
So, you knew when you woke up in the middle of the first night to go check the 1 fireplace downstairs and go right back to sleep? Wow, you must have some sixth sense... and what the heck games have you been playing in the last 2 years!?
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 2:22am |
kuddlesPrivate Detective
Posts : 702
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | Many things in the game can be done in a different order. You can follow a walkthrough for any adventure game and it will progress the story in a step-by-step fashion, obviously.
As for your next question a) you should have spoilered that and b) no, I didn't know. That was the "only one time" that I mentioned. In fact, I mentioned it to the developer. At no point did I need to consult a walkthrough.
And finally, out of all the adventure games that have come out in the last two years, the last one that impressed me as much as Scratches was Myst IV.
[size=10][b]Games:[/b] Europa Universalis III&&[b]Music:[/b] [i]Awoo[/i] - Hidden Cameras&&[b]Series:[/b] Dexter (S1)&&[b]Movies:[/b] The Prestige (8/10) Little Miss Sunshine (5/10)&&[/size]
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 4:47am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By kuddles (15 JUL 2006 2:22am)
Many things in the game can be done in a different order. You can follow a walkthrough for any adventure game and it will progress the story in a step-by-step fashion, obviously.
You seem to be trying to talk Shadow out of this as if the problem is all his. I had the same problem & concerns & so did others. Scratches simply had some flaws when it came to what determined progress thru the game: You've searched the house, but now you have to search it again because you didn't open a drawer. You can't go back to bed until you find where the scratching is coming from, but when you determine it's coming from below, you can't go down in the basement, but you can go back to bed. Huh? That doesn't make Scratches a bad game, but it doesn't make Shadow wrong either!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 11:59am |
shed22Space Cadet
Posts : 106
Joined: 18 SEP 2005
Status : Offline | I've read all the submissions on this thread, and am convinced that there are no comments about what really makes Scratches an 'A' game. As silly as it sounds, games are not only about gameplay. They are also about graphics and atmosphere. I had no real difficulty with playing the game, but I was most taken with the constant building of foreboding and fear. There were several times when I really didn't want to open a certain door, turn a certain corner, or even answer the phone. I won't even mention how I absolutely did not want to go to the basement!)
Condidering that the game also had an ending that precipitated more discussion and interest than any game I remember, Still Life caused complaining; not discussion.) Scratches seems to be high on the list of 'A' games. I can't think of many games I have enjoyed, or been frightened by, as much.
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 12:44pm |
Igor ArtemovSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 1 APR 2003
Status : Online | I think that Scratches is a rare game with perfect logic. At the time of Syberia many people talked about "how good and logical puzzles are!". But actually they were just simple and obvious, they didn't make people think (now what all this adventure business is about?). Puzzles in Scratches make you think without losing the storyline or the logic behind them. I always knew what to do or where to go. The hero even gave hints sometimes about current objectives.
The puzzle with a vase was a good example of thinking involved.
You are told to look for candles... but guess what.. you already checked the entire house 3 times!
Where is the problem? I checked the house, phoned my friend and was told about candles. As I knew I had already checked everything, I just called my friend again and told him there are no candles in the house. Without serching the house again.
After checking one other fireplace, how would you know to go back to your room- senseless meandering around the house yet again.
If I'm not mistaken, the hero told us that he wanted to go to sleep.
Most of the game has only ONE thing that you could do
That is not true, the game is very non-linear (especially compared to TLJ, Syberia and many other games of the XXI century).
Killing Time
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 1:06pm |
kuddlesPrivate Detective
Posts : 702
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (15 JUL 2006 4:46am)
You seem to be trying to talk Shadow out of this as if the problem is all his. I had the same problem & concerns & so did others.
I never said that Shadow's complaints about the game weren't legitimate. I would even be willing to admit that the JA reviewer should have mentioned them in her review. I more took him to task for claiming that all the positive reviewers of the game must have been either lying or cheating.
[size=10][b]Games:[/b] Europa Universalis III&&[b]Music:[/b] [i]Awoo[/i] - Hidden Cameras&&[b]Series:[/b] Dexter (S1)&&[b]Movies:[/b] The Prestige (8/10) Little Miss Sunshine (5/10)&&[/size]
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 4:12pm |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | I thought the JA game rating was about right. It's true that it didn't have a lot of feed back like Barrow Hill but everything you did in it was so logical that all you had to do was think about it and your answer would come. You don't have to search the whole house a second time. It you have already searched it Jerry will keep talking until he catches up with where you are in the game.
The one that got me was I was convinced that I had to dig after I got the shovel and where so I keped digging and getting nothing because hadn't gotten letter translation in the mail yet.
A lot of new games don't have much or any feed back and I really miss that too but it certainly doesn't mean they are not good games. For me the feed back keeps me guessing what's going to hapen next in the story along with keeping me from using a walkthrough and it makes it a lot more fun. If I have lots of clues to think about I will never use a walkthrough. I will studdy the clues and try to figure it out on my own.
Scratches is a game that a walkthrough can spoil because you really need to read all the paper work you find to get the most out of it as that's the only way to understand the story. If you hurry through the game without reading anything you will get ahead of the game and it has to catch up causing some of the problems that where mentioned above.
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| 15 JUL 2006 at 5:33pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | The game fools people into thinking its non-linear because you could walk around a big house... the fact remained that after the first 5 minutes you had to do one specific thing at a time or the story wouldn't "advance" enough to allow you to do the next thing... Jerry did NOT continue on when he asked me to find candles and I already went everywhere... and there were pretty much no "clues" for the first half of the game, which was all that I played before I uninstalled it out of irritation...
You don't need a ton of feedback, but there were WAY too many situations of vagueness in the game... the whole point is that NOT ONE REVIEWER here or on the other 3 or so pro-adventure game reviews even MENTIONED these problems... that worries me.
It seems whenever a new game comes out(especially from newer developers), people want it to be great so they stress the good points and ignore the bad points... I mean, look at Al Emmo... if you haven't noticed, there was one extremely positive review of the game posted at EVERY messageboard by the same poster... everyone then goes into the thread praising the reviewer for such a good job and say how great they think the game will be too... then another review comes out and gives it a 96, borderline perfection! Meanwhile if you look at the adventuregamers.com 18 page long thread about the demo, 75% of the people there had major complaints... NONE of the complaints were even mentioned in any of the "reviews."
To me, it is important to be critical if you are to review something for consumers to go by. Whenever I REALLY like a genre of games, books, tv, or movies, I am ESPECIALLY critical of them, because I love them so much. It seems like other people become blindly for their love for a genre, that in their eyes, they could do no wrong... I look for specific words in reviews that indicate that a game doesn't give much feedback, has some occasional illogical puzzles(like in this game- minor spoiler- using a blunt screwdriver like object to puncture a hole in a GAS CAN! What!? How could that "tool" have punctured a hold in a gas can!)(a 10 foot long rope extends into a 30 foot rope upon using the rope to climb down the side of the house)(search every single painting out of 100s in the house to happen upon one useable spot that turns into a safe)(etc)etc... unfortunately, I have to stress again that some of the latest reviews seem unwilling to point out any potential flaws in these games...
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 16 JUL 2006 at 12:06am |
pollodiabloSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Spoilers follow in answer to your last few remarks - since when is a boring tool a blunt object? It is called a boring tool, because you use it to bore holes... And the painting did have hinges as a clue that it was special, so there was no need to search for hotspots on every one of them.
Beta-tester of 'The Path', 'Rhiannon', 'Scratches', 'Hope Springs Eternal', 'Time Stand Still', 'Frasse and the Peas of Kejick', '1893: A World's Fair Mystery', 'Carte Blanche' and 'Oakhaven Plantation' a.o.&&
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| 16 JUL 2006 at 3:30am |
jujigatameSchattenjger
Posts : 1976
Joined: 14 FEB 2003
Status : Online | shadow, I sympathize. While I haven't played Scratches, the phenomenon you are speaking of where reviewers praise games to the heavens while ignoring all their defects most certainly exists here. The fact is that we get very few good adventure games nowadays so there's a certain "starvation" effect.
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| 16 JUL 2006 at 4:04am |
nytimesguyPrivate Detective
Posts : 684
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I do think reviewers at adventure game sites can be way too easy on adventure games. They're just so excited to have something to play. But I think it is a disservice to the reader to simply ignore flaws. All games have flaws, so a review that doesn't mention any of them is suspect to begin with.
On the other hand, a lot of adventure gamers are remarkably patient and determined people, who will sit and think about a puzzle for hours, or simply try all sorts of crazy stuff until something works. I have a friend who's a great adventure gamer who never uses a walkthrough even though at times he admits it was just perserverence and determination rather than actualy deductive reasoning that got him through a puzzle. Personally I have a low frustration tolerance, although I'm a bit more patient with games that establish early on that they are fair and clever (i.e. Day of the Tentacle).
So perhaps for some reviewers the things that bother me and shadow don't bother them at all, they may like the games for the very reasons that frustrate us. After all, some people even like pixel hunting!
Charles - Game Theorist
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| 16 JUL 2006 at 7:19pm |
buni1161Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 77
Joined: 16 JUL 2006
Status : Online | (I won't even mention how I absolutely did not want to go to the basement!)
I feel that! I'm usually a very- well sort of- brave person in adventure games- but the minute I got to the basement door- and opened it- I chickened out- I distinctly remember thinking- "Mommy I want to go home now" it was definitly scary- and NO WAY was I going back down there- [smiley=scared.gif] [smiley=shocked.gif]
[IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/buni1161/sigred-1.jpg[/IMG]
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| 17 JUL 2006 at 3:50am |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By nytimesguy (16 JUL 2006 4:03am)
I do think reviewers at adventure game sites can be way too easy on adventure games. They're just so excited to have something to play. But I think it is a disservice to the reader to simply ignore flaws. All games have flaws, so a review that doesn't mention any of them is suspect to begin with.
On the other hand, a lot of adventure gamers are remarkably patient and determined people, who will sit and think about a puzzle for hours, or simply try all sorts of crazy stuff until something works. I have a friend who's a great adventure gamer who never uses a walkthrough even though at times he admits it was just perserverence and determination rather than actualy deductive reasoning that got him through a puzzle. Personally I have a low frustration tolerance, although I'm a bit more patient with games that establish early on that they are fair and clever (i.e. Day of the Tentacle).
So perhaps for some reviewers the things that bother me and shadow don't bother them at all, they may like the games for the very reasons that frustrate us. After all, some people even like pixel hunting!
Agreed. Today, I finished Runaway. It was a great game, but the B- review here was dead on with its mentioning of the multiple times in the game where the one item you needed was so well hidden that unless you are a pixel hunting master, you'd never find it. Of course, every other adventure game friendly site refused to mention this shortcoming... but if you go to gamespy's review, they bring it up...
Minor spoilers for runaway:
The most egregious of the Runaway drawbacks- the knob for the screw in the cottage, the sander on the balcony, needing to puff out steam from the train twice, needing to get water for the train 5 times or so with no feedback, the nail at the exit to the mine...
Everything else was great about the game.. I'd give it a solid B/B+... Unless someone spent hours pixel hunting, I have no idea how someone could have found that sander...
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 17 JUL 2006 at 4:23pm |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (15 JUL 2006 5:32pm)
The game fools people into thinking its non-linear because you could walk around a big house... the fact remained that after the first 5 minutes you had to do one specific thing at a time or the story wouldn't "advance" enough to allow you to do the next thing... Jerry did NOT continue on when he asked me to find candles and I already went everywhere... and there were pretty much no "clues" for the first half of the game, which was all that I played before I uninstalled it out of irritation...
You are right but as soon as you get that first call from Jerry you know that he is the key to advancing the story. The phone calls control the chapter or time period changes but everything else is non-linear. He will even call you back after you finish talking to him if you are ahead of the story in your tasks.
It sound to me like you are looking for too much in any adventure game. If it had done all the things you talked about you would have been able to complete it in about hour without a walkthrough. That isn't what we want ether as we would now be taking about how short the game was insted of how good it was. I like problem solving and inventory puzzles when it is logical and Scratches did a great job on all of it. I noticed all the little things you taked about and they were things that I thought could have been done differently but they worked fine the way there were. I think the reviewers looked at the game the way I did and and didn't think those little things were wirth mentioning. I think the rating it got was just about right.
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| 17 JUL 2006 at 4:45pm |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4035
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | Shadow9d9,
You can put your spoilers in a spoiler box, like this:
Spoiler AlertHidden message here.
Just click the question mark above the reply box and type between the words. To view it, just highlight the text.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 17 JUL 2006 at 4:48pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (17 JUL 2006 3:50am)
[ was so well hidden that unless you are a pixel hunting master, you'd never find it. Of course, every other adventure game friendly site refused to mention this shortcoming... but if you go to gamespy's review, they bring it up...
They probably bring that up for almost every AG they review.
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| 17 JUL 2006 at 5:07pm |
shadow9d9Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 295
Joined: 17 JUN 2006
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lady Kestrel (17 JUL 2006 4:45pm)
Shadow9d9,
You can put your spoilers in a spoiler box, like this:
Spoiler AlertHidden message here.
Just click the question mark above the reply box and type between the words. To view it, just highlight the text.
Ah, never knew how to do that. Thanks.
Disclaimer:&&&&Please do not take my opinions personally. I have strong opinions that may differ harshly with other popular opinions. I also have a rather direct way of expressing them. Keep this in mind when reading and do not get upset!
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| 17 JUL 2006 at 9:22pm |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4035
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By shadow9d9 (17 JUL 2006 5:07pm)
Ah, never knew how to do that. Thanks.
You're welcome.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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