| 28 JAN 2003 at 2:01pm |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | I guess I only agree with 5% of that article which is the following: more people is willing to accept beauty and technology over depth and content - but that's it.
I think Mr. Florez decidely prefers "realistic" adventures (FMV, 1st. person, etc.) but not all gamers like that - while I play and like them, I don't prefer them.
Also, and this really gave me shivers, he mentions that we "lost" intellectual puzzles such as math, sliders, crosswords, anagrams, mazes puzzles - well, I could really argue that those are the kinds of puzzles adventures doesn't need.
And I really, really don't believe Myst and Riven launched the "salad days" of adventures.
Anyway, it was interesting to read his opinions while I don't agree with them.
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 2:02pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Huuuh???? Who is this guy? He's not in the JA staff, or if he is then he is not in the JA staff list. Wow, what's his problem with cartoons or 3D characters in the first place?
He says the great adventures and he mentions (Pandora, ROTH, Slivers, Lighthouse, Amber, Are You Afraid of the Dark?, The Cassandra Galleries, Timelapse, Ripper, Cydonia, 9, more ).
Excuse moi, but I don't think that these are the greatest adventures of the most adventure players. I'm growing tired of objective TOP adventures... it would be better if we started trying looking things a little bit 'outside of our body' for a change.
Didn't Randy use to write the Current State of Adventure Gaming before? It used to be more professional when Randy was writing it I think.
This is more of an article that you would read in a forum I think, since it is quite objective.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 3:34pm |
dimidimidimiSchattenjger
Posts : 1784
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I'm sorry ok...I read this article once more and really...who is this guy. He writes and I quote:
"Third person games are now commonplace. And are also dehumanizing."
I am literally laughing out loud right now. Third person games are now commonplace. Ok, maybe English not being my native language plays a role in that...but if I understand this right, he means that 3rd person adventures are dominant in the adventure market nowadays (if I understood it wrong then I apologize, and what I write from now on won't matter).
And I really mean...excuse moi...in which planet???? Now I think about the golden age of adventure gaming, the lucasarts/sierra age, and I see large amounts of 3rd person adventures coming out every year. I come now back to 2003.
We've had Syberia and.... oh yes we also had The Longest Journey 3 years ago. 2 3rd person adventures the last 3 years. I mean, really...who is this guy? Now why am I being so picky about the subject?
I am doing a great effort of bringing people to The Inventory and JA, which whether some people like it or not, they are connected. Now in my efforts I have roamed several forums with potential readers/adventure gamers. These include forums that have to do with science fiction/history/esoteric societies/fantasy etc, AND also forums of people that liked the old adventure games of Sierra and Lucasarts. I have invited these people to JA and The Inventory.
I am trying to convince these people that adventures are on the rise again. I also happen to notice a new breed of adventure gamers who have been initiated to adventures through Syberia.
Now when a guy like him states his opinion in an article with the title 'The State of Adventure Gaming' in the front page of JA, which is the largest site about adventures, and plays a big role in the future of adventures, it sounds like his opinion represents the opinion of JA as a whole.
And please tell me how would a Syberia fan, or someone who has abandoned adventures for some time and tries to reconsider his attitude towards them (like old Sierra/Lucasarts fans), or comics fans, or 3rd adventure fans would feel about this article, and maybe about JA's opinion as a whole?
This is probably the worst article I've read the past 5 years that I have been visiting JA and I truly wish that Randy took over the State of Adventure Gaming articles again.
PDF adventure magazine - The Inventory&&http://www.justadventure.com/TheInventory/TheInventory.shtm&&&&What would you give to know the truth?&&http://www.brokensaints.com
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 3:35pm |
ArnirIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 53
Joined: 21 JAN 2003
Status : Online | I admit to being a bit confused while reading the article. I was expecting, well, an article about the "Current State of Adventure Gaming." Although it is about the topic per se, it came across as a rant about games not being the way the author wanted them to be. His list of great adventure games? I think not. Some good ones, but the greats?)
Maybe I am alone in this, but I like plot. Sometimes dialogue is necessary, sometimes it isn't. But I despair when I read on an (if not the) adventure web site that long dialogue is bad. I thought adventure gaming (and RPG to some extent) was the last refuge of those with an attention span of more than 5 seconds.
Some of the other points I agree with such as more variety in types of puzzles and game perspectives.
Something about this article really rubbed me the wrong way. I was expecting a typical JA article that I might disagree with but would be thought provoking. This article struck me as being the rantings of an unhappy whiner. Please note that I'm not trying to insult John Florez. I think he made some interesting and debatable points but lost them (and much credibility) in his almost pouty style. Not up to the standards of JA.
[edited for spelling]
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 4:09pm |
| Deleted User | Monkeybone's Article Breakdown!
Syberia broke his back? I mean, how? It's beautiful, well written, intelligent and easy enough to introduce people like my girlfriend into the adventure genre! I weened her on TLJ and she loved it -her only complaint about Syberia is she's solving it too quickly!
STATIC
Static? I see nothing static in the cream of todays adventures, with rich, flowing backgrounds and increasingly better animated characters. We do navigate real time, through any game, with any time breaks usually coming through cut scenes!
I assume he means first person, fps style control - but really, this kind of control doesn't suit some people, hence the proliferation of accessible point n click games. My girlfriend occasionally presses the wrong mouse button, and she didn't enjoy Grim Fandango's control method at all. I did though, but that's not the point!
With any game we "gawk" at the artistry, and its success is the immersion. We spent hours on Syberia last night, hooked. So, it was successful, IMO.
MECHANICAL
"Salad days"? Myst and Riven? Hardly! They introduced many, many people to computer gaming and those people are the ones who've gone on to buy more and more adventures. And many of the skills he lists, like avoidance, sneaking and so forth are things that I'd find in Splinter Cell. In Riven the island itself was a huge puzzle, which wasn't mechaniacal and required a large amount of thought and exploration to break.
In fact, many of the puzzles he lists are in Riven - heavy reading, musical and sound puzzles, and what about the grid machine near the end?
ANIMATED
I hate it when people do this. What's better, a bad animated film or a bad live action film? Neither, they're BOTH bad and they're both films. An animated film is STILL a film, and you can connect with the rabbits in Watership Down as much as you can connect with Jack Nicholson in About Schmidt.
It's all about emotional response - you can have a bad FMV actor and not give a damn about him. Likewise, you can have a bad animated character and not care.
Mannie in Grim Fandango is charming, witty and has some fantastic lines. He's great, and has more personality in his blocky little finger than the entire cast of Black Dhalia or -dare I say it- Night Trap. (remember that?)
Therefore, it's not the medium thats the problem - it's the way it's being used.
DIALOGUE-DRIVEN
Adventure games have always been about dialogue AND adventure, and always has since the days of Scapeghost and the Sierra titles. These relatively new, graphic-based games like Myst and Schizm are the paradox, with less dialogue and sometimes none.
I agree that there's too much dialogue in TLJ, but most of it was charming and character ful. It really depends on the game and its use of the expository dialogue in its puzzles and creation of place. When its badly written and read by games developers that fancy themselves as filmmakers - now, there's a problem.
Of course, there is such thing as too much, although I'd hardly accuse Syberia of having that problem...
THIRD PERSON
I don't remember Kate Walker having any pre-defined "hot spots" other than when she was using her phone. GK3 has map modes and is 3rd person and it's very involving, and by pressing "esc" you could turbo out of there in no time, likewise TLJ.
Besides, how is a grainy FMV character going to stand up to today's forthcoming games? We have to embrace new technology if adventures are going to make it in this world, "competing" as it were against the Doom 3's and Unreal 2's.
It seems to me as if this guy is just frustraetd that he feels he had a bad experience playing what many think is the best new adventuer around. Sure, he's entitled to his opinion, but just because he didn't personally feel involved in it and it's shifting loadsa units doesn't mean the Adventure genre is coming crashing to a halt.
I'm getting the feeling that there's far too much paranoia amongst the adventure community at the mo'. We should accept that trends come and go, but adventures will always "be" in one form or another. As technology moves towards being more intergrated, I'd say at least 70% of ordinary people aren't going to feel comfortable blowing aliens out of the sky using a complicated control method for relaxation.
Rather, they're going to settle down with the gaming equivalent of a good armchair thriller or fantasy novel. Let's hope, eh?
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 5:20pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I'm not sure why this article is so upsetting to some. The author is actually voicing several opinions that many others (including myself) have on this forum. He obviously prefers the games, as I do, that emanated from just before, during, and in the period a few years after Myst/Riven- the 1st person point & clickers and the 2D 3rd person games.
I think it's hard to argue with the fact that the Myst/Riven era was the 'salad days' of adventure gaming in the sense that millions of games were sold, adventure games could easily be found on store shelves, and companies were putting big money into developing new AGs.
Where I do disagree with him is the implication that more recent AG games like Syberia are somehow deficient or of less interest than the games he listed. I sympathize with him when it comes for his love of the earlier games, but I don't for a moment think the more recent games are substandard- on the contrary!
This is really a question of taste and I think his article should be reviewed as more of a statement of his opinion rather than a comment from on high as to the status of the present adventure game era.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 6:14pm |
dombrewerGuild Master
Posts : 3103
Joined: 19 JAN 2003
Status : Offline | I think Monkeybone really nailed it with some if his arguments - nice one!!
The article is an interesting read but somewhat predictable- let's all have a moan about the state of adventure gaming- and though I get where he's coming from it's a viewpoint that gets dug up on a regular basis, year in year out.
Of course we all have our favourite games and wish that we could see more of them, just in the same way we love films we saw when we were kids and proclaim 'they don't make them like that any more'. Well fact is, things change, and if they did stay the same we'd all be bored out of our skin.
Frankly I'm pleased that adventure games are still being made at all, judging the current gaming market no adventure game ever hopes of matching the sales of the latest FPS or similar. At least there are some programmers and software houses still out there keen to keep the genre going, in whatever form that might take. And if the new games don't match up to the old ones? I'll just go back and play the old ones till they do!
[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/detective.gif[/img][b]Playing:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/blahblah.gif[/img][b]Reading:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/whistle.gif[/img][b]Listening:[/b] &&[img]http://www.justadventure.com/public_html/yabbfiles/Smilies/indie.gif[/img][b]Watching:[/b]
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 7:59pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4940
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | dombrewer:
Well put!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 9:07pm |
szcaxJourneyman
Posts : 935
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Nice article! It's nice to see someone write something other than the average the-golden-days-of-adventuring-are-gone-let's-go-wallow-in-some-self -pity sentamental drivel. I also applaud Mr Florez for avoiding the traditional fingerpointing at action games.
I'm not arguing that action games didn't kill the adventure games, but it's nice to hear a different idea. Frankly, a lot of us probably feel like covering our ears and singing a song when someone such as Florez suggests that adventure games eroded into mediocrity on their own. But his opinion remains a valid one, and I'm thrilled to see someone with a strong, controversial ideas about the genre who isn't afraid to share them with the rest of us.
I'm not saying that Action games ever did the Adventure Genre any good, nor am I attacking anyone who opposed Florez' opinion. Frankly, I strongly disagree with his opinion as well. But it sure feels good to hear someone breathe his unusual ideas into the arena.
Black holes are where God divided by zero
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 9:12pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By szcax (28 JAN 2003 9:07pm)
But it sure feels good to hear someone breathe his unusual ideas into the arena.
And I honestly believe that diversity for the sake of diversity is a silly concept.
Oh yea, now I see, the article opens with that line about Syberia
I forgot my sig.
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 9:33pm |
| Deleted User | We've got to stop perceiving the adventure genre as being an entity on this forum, as it's not! It didn't kill itself off, it's not dead, as a genre it just moved sideways rather than upwards, if you catch ma drift. It's no use though, try as I might I can't stop speaking of it as an entity either... d'oh!
Thinking about it, I was about to nail the developers as the reason the genre's waned, but it's not. They have their own self-interests, but the people that drive it, unlike the people that drive, say, the motion picture industry, are more passionate about their craft.
The competitive nature of the market means that in order to succeed, what you make has gotta be good. It's not like a film that could pick money off rentals if it flops at the cinema, it's released, opinions are made and if it's bad it's dead. Cryo tried pulling off the same old trick year after year, and look what happened to them. They underestimated the intelligence of the public that bought that style of game.
The majority of developers have the gamers interest at heart, as a game has to hook a large amount of people to succeed. The problem is, due to an influx of crap titles from bad developers that swamp the market with the dish of the day, adventure gaming became a minefield unless you knew what you're looking for. It's like looking for a good book, with less to choose from.
This is starting to happen with the FPS genre, and like adventure gaming it's had to warp itself to fit a new hole. Purists hate it. But that's the way it is! And you have to remember, gaming is still quite young as a form of entertainment. Now they're trying to pull of as much as possible, but the know that there are different types of people with different tastes and soon the range will increase as the market becomes more open.
Problem is at the moment, as a whole gaming stillisn't perceived as a serious pastime unless you're a hardcore FPS freak, where you play for money, or an adventure gamer, where the game requires time and effort on your part to crack. When the general public get past the fact that gaming is so much more than Halo, Counter Strike or Sonic The Hedgehog (or it's nearest modern equivalent) more choice will be made available.
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 9:34pm |
szcaxJourneyman
Posts : 935
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (28 JAN 2003 9:11pm)
And I honestly believe that diversity for the sake of diversity is a silly concept.
I think diverity for the sake of diversity is wonderful. If someone has a strong opinion that I haven't heard yet about a topic that I'm passionate about, I'm all ears. As I said, I strongly disagree with most of his opinions.
Yeah, his comments about Syberia earned him a couple of points on my "cool people" list . My above topic would've been the same regardless of his opinion on Syberia, though.
I really like your points monkeybone!
Black holes are where God divided by zero
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 9:37pm |
| Deleted User | szcax - Just out of interest, I want to know what you disagree with. I don't want to flame anyone, not anymore, but I'm finding it hard to understand your opinion on the matter.
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 9:45pm |
szcaxJourneyman
Posts : 935
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By monkeybone (28 JAN 2003 9:36pm)
szcax - Just out of interest, I want to know what you disagree with. I don't want to flame anyone, not anymore, but I'm finding it hard to understand your opinion on the matter.
3rd person games are dehumanizing. You can't relate to cartoon characters. Myst and Riven share the blame for what AG has become (I hated Myst, but doubt that it led to the downfall of AG)
Sorry for refering to AG as an entity all this time... it's so hard to break out of that rut
Black holes are where God divided by zero
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 9:54pm |
| Deleted User | Halfway thru writing, I realised that I do it too... so don't worry about it! It's hard not to!
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 10:02pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Naturally, real persons are more expensive than animated characters.
But where are all those human-based adventures he writes about?
There are not that many, but it sounds like he knows hundreds of them.
It's just for supporting his animate argument. Quite nonsense.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 28 JAN 2003 at 10:31pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By szcax (28 JAN 2003 9:33pm)
I think diversity for the sake of diversity is wonderful.
So - hypothetically speaking - if I started spouting off some racist drivel, you'd be all happy that there is more diversity?
Yeah, his comments about Syberia earned him a couple of points on my "cool people" list
The fun part about Syberia is that it seems to be an excellent "newbie" game. I lent my Syberia box to friends who never played a computer game before (not counting solitaire etc.) and they absolutely loved it.
I forgot my sig.
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| 29 JAN 2003 at 10:27pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | From the article:
Third person games are now commonplace.
It just occurred to me that he may be using a different definition of 3rd person adventure from the rest of us. Most of us think of 3rd person adventures as those where you see the character on the screen.
But I've noticed that some people (usually newbies) think 3rd person games are those where you are playing a character other than yourself. By that definition, games like Loch Ness and Nancy Drew and Atlantis (all 3) would be 3rd person, even though they use 1st person perspective and you only see your character on screen during cut scenes.
If that's what he was thinking, then yes there are a lot of games around like that. It's not what most of us consider to be 3rd person games though.
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| 29 JAN 2003 at 10:59pm |
szcaxJourneyman
Posts : 935
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (28 JAN 2003 10:30pm)
So - hypothetically speaking - if I started spouting off some racist drivel, you'd be all happy that there is more diversity?
You've got a good point.
Originally Posted By MichalN (28 JAN 2003 10:30pm)
The fun part about Syberia is that it seems to be an excellent "newbie" game. I lent my Syberia box to friends who never played a computer game before (not counting solitaire etc.) and they absolutely loved it.
Glad to hear that! Maybe they'd like to meet the interesting people on this forum.
Black holes are where God divided by zero
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| 29 JAN 2003 at 11:41pm |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Florez's article wasn't diversity for diversity's sake. It was one person's opinon, a very specific opinon, about what he liked and didn't like about adventure games. There's no reason his article shouldn't be run. I found it interesting, his background in the music buisness, his like for the game 9, his dislike for Syberia. Whether one agrees with him is neither here not there. You can't deny him a voice just because it's one you don't recongize or agree with. In fact, as Sir Dave pointed out, several of Florez's points have been previously brought up in this forum. I don't understand this growing consenus that he is coming out of left field.
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| 29 JAN 2003 at 11:47pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By scout (29 JAN 2003 11:40pm)
I don't understand this growing consenus that he is coming out of left field.
I don't see how I could take anyone who claims that "cartoon characters are dehumanizing" and "3rd person games are dehumanizing" seriously. He makes some interesting points but also many points that are completely indefensible.
I forgot my sig.
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| 30 JAN 2003 at 4:50am |
scoutPrivate Detective
Posts : 736
Joined: 2 NOV 2002
Status : Online | If he makes a couple of interesting points then fine. I didn't agree with him on the whole anymore than you did but I've heard opinons like his before. We're not really disagreeing here. (Advocatus Diaboli indeed.) My thinking is much more closely aligned with yours MichalN than Florez's. I'm just kind of flabbergasted that the article elicted the response it did. And this wasn't the only forums where people got tweaked either. Hee hee.
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| 30 JAN 2003 at 5:19am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | I guess it isn't obvious to everyone that a column called "The State of Adventure Gaming" is just an editorial.
Perhaps a disclaimer is in order.
By the way, can anyone contribute "State of Adventure Gaming" columns to JA the way anyone can submit items to a newspaper's Letters to the Editor?
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| 30 JAN 2003 at 5:23am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By scout (30 JAN 2003 4:50am)
We're not really disagreeing here. Advocatus Diaboli indeed.)
My thinking is much more closely aligned with yours MichalN than Florez's. I'm just kind of flabbergasted that the article elicted the response it did.
I see... yeah, I'm not surprised that people disagree, but I'm a bit surprised about the way some do it.
And this wasn't the only forums where people got tweaked either.
Any details?
I forgot my sig.
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