| 19 APR 2006 at 7:00pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | welcome to the new age of adventure games.... : unfortunately, the syberia type (all beauty, no brains) adventures are the ones prevailing the past years, since apparently that's what new gamers want... actually we should be happy for now, cause it seems things can get even worse, with everything turning into action/adventure hybrids (hopefully no one will follow on dreamfall's steps)... for good, challenging adventuring you can always rely to good old titles (i'm sure you haven't played everything), as well as indie titles... best in its league: other worlds... if you don't care about bad gfx, you're in for some good, challenging adventuring... and it's free on top of that!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 19 APR 2006 at 7:14pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | I agree with you, Blount. When I played Broken Sword and Syberia I didn't really feel like I was doing any decision making -- more like being compelled down a very narrow hallway with no intersections and pretty artwork hanging on the walls (that I'm not allowed to touch). I started playing adventure games back in the Infocom text-adventure days when there was a lot more freedom of interaction and puzzles were actually puzzling.
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| 19 APR 2006 at 8:14pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | It's a rather amazing bit of serendipity that you happen to bring this up.
I just finished Syberia I last night, and after uninstalling Syberia, I immediately popped in Scratches, installed it, downloaded the Scratches patch (here), installed the patch (which everyone really should do before playing Scratches - no matter what your system specs are for the computer you are running it on), started the game, and sighed a familiar - yet somewhat old and forgotten - sigh of pleasure.
Puzzles. May the wellspring of ingenious ones never be exhausted.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 20 APR 2006 at 1:54am |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1477
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | I was never a huge fan of "Pixel hunting for x object" to use 3 hours later or having to keep a hold of 50zillion things that you "may" end up needing in the future.
Why's it so hard for adventure games to have good puzzles that make you think, but think more logically and fit within the story/setting of the game?
Likewise why does it have to be so linear at times either?
IE - Need to get through a door but it's locked....must find a key, oh there's an axe on the wall let me grab that and.....oh wait you can't, picklocks I saved from three hours ago...oh wait they only were meant to work on "one" door and no others...
IMO The adventure games as a whole needs to move forward and away from the "Find object, pick up object, use object" rinse and repeat throughout the entire game as their main puzzles and towards somethin well.....more open-ended and dynamic that allows people to approach them different ways and such, like a good open ended rpg (The elder scrolls/Gothic games come to mind).
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| 20 APR 2006 at 3:00am |
BlountSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 271
Joined: 19 APR 2006
Status : Offline | I started played adventures in the early 90s and i also had a brief experience with text based games (which are exactly the opposite of "the new age of adventuregames" as aya said ).
3rd person adventures are my all-time favourite game genre specially having played oldies like Dreamweb, Lost files of sherlock holmes, Beneath a steel sky, Blue force, Freddy pharkas, Gabriel Knight, etc
I think that if a new adventure title like syberia (which im actually glad that they come out, even if its only to keep the genre alive) can improve the puzzlesolving-decisionmaking issue could be actually an classic.
The game has a great plot and an amazing atmosphere, it takes you in the story... but no more than an average movie does, it felt like something was missing.
I felt more or less like I was playing a mid90s FMV adventure (and i think you guys know what i mean...)
Aya: what do you mean with "indie titles"?
Stiler: The only truly non-linear classic adventure game that pops in my mind is Indiana Jones Fate of Atlantis, in which at a certain point you had to make a choice of 3 gameplay modes.
I played and finished Gothic in 4 days (got glued to the screen by the plot ) but i was told only Chapter 1 (when you choose sides: temple, gomez or merc) is open ended, after Ch1 is the same game and the ending its the same.. this is getting a bit off topic i think...
Ok so far you guys recommend: Other worlds and scratches?
Currently Playing: Dracula Origins&&&&Check out my Videogame Music Covers!! http://www.youtube.com/user/SixStringsGeek
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| 20 APR 2006 at 5:03am |
StilerJourneyman
Posts : 1477
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, TN
Status : Offline | I remember back in the 80's/early 90's the games taht used Text-based commands.
Like the Police Quest games and such, I always thought that those were some great/open games.
Don't know if you're looking for suggestiosn for new games, but if you never played any of the police quest games I highly recommend them. They are basically adventure/mystery/sim rolled up into one I'd say, though fairly old (80's).
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| 20 APR 2006 at 8:07am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Blount and Ooya (20 APR 2006 2:59am)
The game has a great plot and an amazing atmosphere, it takes you in the story... but no more than an average movie does, it felt like something was missing. I felt more or less like I was playing a mid90s FMV adventure (and i think you guys know what i mean...)
I love FMV adventures. And no, I don't know what you mean. Are you saying FMV adventures don't have good puzzles? I'm currently replaying Black Dahlia and the puzzles are just as hard as I remembered them.
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| 20 APR 2006 at 12:39pm |
BlountSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 271
Joined: 19 APR 2006
Status : Offline | Quote from betje
I love FMV adventures. And no, I don't know what you mean. Are you saying FMV adventures don't have good puzzles? I'm currently replaying Black Dahlia and the puzzles are just as hard as I remembered them
I should have said a BAD fmv game...
I enjoyed some FMV games such The Beast Within and Phantasmagoria, but i think black dahlia is more a myst clones, which im not very fond of, although these games actually have the hardest puzzles around.
I may be wrong and accept criticism in these opinions...
Currently Playing: Dracula Origins&&&&Check out my Videogame Music Covers!! http://www.youtube.com/user/SixStringsGeek
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| 20 APR 2006 at 1:17pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Blount and Ooya (20 APR 2006 12:39pm)
Quote from betje
I love FMV adventures. And no, I don't know what you mean. Are you saying FMV adventures don't have good puzzles? I'm currently replaying Black Dahlia and the puzzles are just as hard as I remembered them
I should have said a BAD fmv game...
I enjoyed some FMV games such The Beast Within and Phantasmagoria, but i think black dahlia is more a myst clones, which im not very fond of, although these games actually have the hardest puzzles around.
I may be wrong and accept criticism in these opinions...
You prefer 3rd-person games with inventory-based puzzles and dialogues, which are great adventures to be sure. But it seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, that for you Myst clones and 1st-person games are more or less the same thing. Both The Beast Within and Phantasmagoria are 3rd-person. In general, Mystian games share the following characteristics.
- 1st-person
- lonely exploration
- subtle story/plot through books, diaries, cut scenes etcetera but no dialogues
- usually no inventory-based puzzles; instead mechanical devices, symbol puzzles
Black Dahlia is filled to the brim with people and dialogues (FMV). The puzzles are a mixed bag: stand-alone puzzles in the vein of Myst but inventory-based ones as well. It has a very strong story. In my humble opinion BD has much more in common with the Tex Murphy games than with Myst.
PS: By the way, there are hardly any puzzles Phantasmagoria. Let alone hard ones.
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| 20 APR 2006 at 1:36pm |
BlountSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 271
Joined: 19 APR 2006
Status : Offline | Thanks for the correction, regarding myst clones im starting another topic.http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1145539985
PS: Don´t ask me why did I actually enjoyed phantasmagoria, i just did... :-[
Currently Playing: Dracula Origins&&&&Check out my Videogame Music Covers!! http://www.youtube.com/user/SixStringsGeek
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| 20 APR 2006 at 1:36pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | indie titles means games that are developed by independant developers, which in turn means developing teams made up of 1 or 2 ppl, without any funding whatsoever... those games are usually either freeware or available to purchase from the developers site (dload or physical disk)... sometimes some games make the crossover and find a publisher that releases them to the market (for example scratches or quiet weekend in capri)... some of those games, esp the freeware ones, focus solely on gameplay and puzzles (as opposed to commercial games that are focusing solely on the visuals)... and although there are some indie games that are as easy as the commercial ones (eg delaware st john - enjoyable but really short and easy), there are others that bring the golden adventuring days back (eg other worlds)
and, btw, like betje pointed out, you're making the mistake that lots of ppl make... confusing 1st person adventures with myst-clones... 1st person doesn't mean myst-clone!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 20 APR 2006 at 1:40pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Stiler (20 APR 2006 1:54am)
Why's it so hard for adventure games to have good puzzles that make you think, but think more logically and fit within the story/setting of the game?
This is the million dollar question!
I would posit that most adventure games these days are built from the story up. First, the developers concoct a tale, then they draw some "concept art" and go to their computers to build the characters and sets. The last step is to insert some puzzles into the mix, thus making it a game rather than an interactive movie. Not surprisingly, the puzzles yielded by this method are routine and superficial. Nowadays, a lot of developers simply forego puzzles in favour of arcade/action sequences (e.g. Broken Sword 3, Indigo Prophecy, Dreamfall, etc.) thinking that they're innovating the genre. In actuality, they are leaving the genre.
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| 20 APR 2006 at 3:02pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Blount and Ooya (20 APR 2006 1:36pm)
Thanks for the correction, regarding myst clones im starting another topic.http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1145539985
PS: Don´t ask me why did I actually enjoyed phantasmagoria, i just did... :-[
I did too. At least I remember enjoying it for the most part. The concept of 3rd-person FMV horror was new and exciting in those days. 8-)
Not trying to force Mystian games down your throat, I mean, if you don't like them you don't like them, period. But... to summarize: you enjoy a good story, the more recent games are too easy and you don't really mind FMV. So why not give the older 1st-person games a chance. In many of them you even have a face (in cut scenes), a name and a personality! 8-) They also have dialogues and inventory-based puzzles that tax the old brain, so you might find a lot to enjoy. If you haven't played them already, I highly recommend the following games.
Journeyman Project (series) -- with your companion Arthur, who you can fortunately switch off if you get fed up with him
Tex Murphy (series) -- 3D, complicated interface, but great humor and nice plots, good variety of puzzles
The Last Express -- unique, not many inventory-based puzzles, but you're surrounded by people and the story is intriguing
Callahan's Crosstime Saloon and other games by the wonderful company Legend
Zork Grand Inquisitor -- Zork Nemesis is a dark Mystian game, but the humorous world of the Zork GI is filled with all kinds of talking creatures and you have an invisible companion here as well.
Dark Side of the Moon
PS: Spycraft is a great game too. With unique puzzles.
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| 20 APR 2006 at 3:09pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | and let's not forget 4 of the greatest 1st person inventory-based adventures, 1st person YEARS before myst came around:
uninvited, deja vu, shadowgate, deja vu 2 (in order of preference)
check out the windows remakes for best gfx, or the amiga versions... do not go for the dos versions (if you have a choice, go for the best looking one!)
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 20 APR 2006 at 4:11pm |
papillonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 340
Joined: 3 JUL 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Crapstorm (20 APR 2006 1:39pm)
I would posit that most adventure games these days are built from the story up. First, the developers concoct a tale, then they draw some "concept art" and go to their computers to build the characters and sets. The last step is to insert some puzzles into the mix, thus making it a game rather than an interactive movie. Not surprisingly, the puzzles yielded by this method are routine and superficial.
This does have some truth in it.
First and foremost - I like stories more than I like puzzles. Therefore, when I'm building a game, the STORY comes first. That's the important part.
If it's a story that puzzles can't fit into at all, then I'm not going to bother pushing down an adventure game route, I'll call it an RPG or a sim or something.
But trying to make puzzles serve the story does make it difficult to have really complicated puzzles. For one thing, the puzzles need to make sense within the game world. I don't believe in locking my safe with a pyramid made out of soup cans, or in building a complicated locking system involving jewels and planets and rotating them into the right order AND THEN LEAVING AN INSTRUCTION GUIDE SITTING NEXT TO IT.
Second thing - a puzzle should not break story flow. A puzzle that takes hours and hours to figure out completely disrupts the player's progress through the narrative. They could lose momentum, forget what they were doing. This is worrying. Also, a difficult puzzle in the wrong circumstances creates believability issues. In the middle of a murder investigation, would anyone *really* grind to a halt trying to decipher an old recipe for chocolate chip cookies? (In the right circumstances, a difficult puzzle is fine. Painstakingly piecing together damaged evidence for the same murder investigation is logical. That isn't something one would just give up on.)
So, in a game that cares about story, both the puzzle AND the information required to solve it have to be logically present, and difficult puzzles have to be carefully placed and balanced with motivation.
Now, I'm not going to be doing anything but placeholder art until the entire story structure AND all puzzles are in place - I'm trying to write the story and the puzzles at the same time, weaving them into the narrative as I go. But the story is the most important part, and I am reluctant to put in any puzzle that's really HARD.
[url=http://whineaboutgames.blogspot.com]I Whine About Games[/url]&&&&[url=http://www.hanakogames.com]Anime Games[/url]
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| 20 APR 2006 at 6:57pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Betje (20 APR 2006 3:02pm)
Dark Side of the Moon
Seconded.
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| 21 APR 2006 at 4:32pm |
BlountSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 271
Joined: 19 APR 2006
Status : Offline | I just played and finished an AGS amateur adventure called "Cedric and the Revolution".
Its a charming classical style adventure with a scummlike interface, it has some nice lateral thinking puzzles and early lucasarts reminiscences.
This game is an example that not everything is invented regarding ingenious puzzles and the classic 3rd person system is not dead (i mean inventory management, dialogue choices, etc).
Of course its quite short and easy as most amateur adventures but this guy has done a great work, it may be one of the best AGS games i played.
papillon: where can i find more info bout that project youre working in? :-?
Currently Playing: Dracula Origins&&&&Check out my Videogame Music Covers!! http://www.youtube.com/user/SixStringsGeek
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| 22 APR 2006 at 2:00pm |
papillonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 340
Joined: 3 JUL 2003
Status : Online | I can't give out much info because people tend to want screenshots to get them excited about works-in-progress, and I'm not going to have anything other than scribbled placeholders for a long time, and I don't want those being distributed and people mistakenly thinking that's what the game is going to look like.
so all I will say is - Anime horror/romance. With multiple endings.
(And according to frustrated tester who spent an hour poking at it, demanded extra hints, and still needed a lot more time, the latest puzzle added is at least somewhat difficult. )
[url=http://whineaboutgames.blogspot.com]I Whine About Games[/url]&&&&[url=http://www.hanakogames.com]Anime Games[/url]
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| 22 APR 2006 at 5:59pm |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | I don't think we can complaine about how hard or easy any game is because everyone has a different view of what is hard and what is easy. It is nice to have a lot of interaction though.
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| 23 APR 2006 at 1:18pm |
BlountSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 271
Joined: 19 APR 2006
Status : Offline | You are quite right Jalex. A game being hard or easy is quite non-objective, depends on each one who plays the game but the point im trying to make is about interaction (thats what this topic about anyway ).
Although Im for challenging puzzles than obvious ones, i still prefer an adventure game which is easy but with a lots of (interaction) things to do (I like to call it Sense of Virtual Freedom) than the hardest AG with no more than three or four HARDEST puzzles that, taking hours to solve, actually interfere with enjoying the game.
As papillon said, the optimum should be balanced difficulty, story involved puzzles but i disagree with "story-being-way-more-important-than-puzzles" i think they are equally important .
Currently Playing: Dracula Origins&&&&Check out my Videogame Music Covers!! http://www.youtube.com/user/SixStringsGeek
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| 23 APR 2006 at 2:08pm |
trudysgardenSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 312
Joined: 19 JUL 2005
Status : Online | I enjoy games from all different categories but I do think that many of the adventure games made in the last few years followed the formula Crapstorm laid out. Puzzles and riddles are squeezed into the game after almost everything else is done and it becomes obvious to the player quite early on.
As far as a lack of interactivity goes - I literally fell asleep at the keyboard playing Syberia, slogged on to play Syberia II, TLJ and Moment of Silence only to find myself trapped at the keyboard for 15 minutes of conversation. Come on, was there a better way to get the info across to me folks? I don't really mind conversation but it begins to sound like the announcements at WalMart after the first couple of minutes to me. All I can think of sometimes is the Peanuts cartoons when the adults are speaking to the characters.
Edit - spelling
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| 23 APR 2006 at 4:11pm |
madaraIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 2
Joined: 23 APR 2006
Status : Online | You guys make alot good points and validate alot of reasons why this genre is not as popular anymore. I wonder if the technologies though coming out like the Free Hand Controller that Nintendo has with its new coming Revolution system and its rumored use of complete 3D space and voice recognition would help vastly. Imagine being able to physically feel as you move the lever in the cave, move the crate and reach to pick up the bar under it. Objects not out in plain sight but you could move a bush or look through debris and then combine items realisticly with proper handmovements. Tie in possible voice recognition and you have the game as interactive if not more then back when we gave our own text commands but this time we think up the conversations or words that will interact with npcs, objects, etc. This has me very excited and I glad to see a few posts everyday about what this system could do for adventure games and I can only hope those sitting on hot properties are already aware of this(looking at you for one, Vivendi)and are testing out the waters and using the original creators also make sure that the foundation is solid with good characters, story and settings.
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| 24 APR 2006 at 1:27pm |
mr_williIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 60
Joined: 10 NOV 2003
Status : Online | There are two extremes in adventure games. There are the puzzle games, like Myst, where focus is on puzzle solving and story pretty much takes a back seat. Then there are story games, such as Dreamfall, which is more an interactive movie than a game, with very few puzzles to solve.
I personally prefer the latter over the former because stories are what draws me into games in the first place. I'll admit I'm no great fan of myst and its clones, not that there is anything wrong with them, they're just not my type of gaming. The problem with many story-focused adventures is the hold your hand through the game, providing, as you point out, very little interaction. One solution, I think, would be to bring back the touch, see, feel, etc. interfaces of yesteryear. This way the paths wouldn't always be so clear. And adding some of the branching dialogue and side-quests of RPGs wouldn't hurt either, especially if the side-quests could be finished in multiple ways that shape the overall character.
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| 27 APR 2006 at 12:03am |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | I think AG's are going through what movies went though and are still going through to some extent when all the CGI first became availible. They spend so much time making them look cool that everything else suffers
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