| 18 APR 2006 at 4:35am |
Randy-JAJourneyman
Posts : 1351
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I wouldn't expect to see a review of Dreamfall at any of the adventure sites too soon as Funocm and Aspyr have decided to provide advance copies of Dreamfall to sites like Gamespot and IGN instead of supporting the adventure community that supported them when none of the big sites wanted to review Longest Journey. Funcom seems to only care about mainstream like New York Times, Gamespot et al
We will be purchasing a copy next week for review, but have you not noticed that none of the adventure sites have had previews, screenshots, etc of Dreamfall? While Gamespot and IGN have run exclusive previews? In my opinion, the marketing for Dreamfall is the poorest I have seen in the 8 years of doing JA.
Now compare the manner in which Paradise has been marketed, Ubi Soft has provided both the adventure community and the mainstream sites with material, so while they are building grass roots support in the adventure community, they are also attempting to reach the mainstream without doing so at the expense of the adventure community which they realize is their bread and butter.
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| 18 APR 2006 at 4:42am |
MikekellyPrivate Detective
Posts : 612
Joined: 25 JUN 2004
Status : Offline |
Sounds like a Syberia 2 review.
I've read some player reviews and they RAVE about the game.
Mine's paid for over at amazon.com and I'm finishing Egypt 1 ASAP to play it.
I've got Paradise comming too and I'm going to play Dreamfall and Paradise back to back!
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| 18 APR 2006 at 8:09am |
KamisoriXSchattenjger
Posts : 1700
Joined: 15 MAY 2004
Status : Online | actually after i read what the devs said about the game i didn't expect much of a real sequell but a name snatcher.
Neverless it still can be a fun game...I just don't have any expectations for it. best way for not getting disapointed :-*
[IMG]http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/971/kamisig94ct.gif[/IMG]&&&&If the Earth would be a Sphere, and not a Disc, I wouldn't be so afraid to fall of the Edge...
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| 18 APR 2006 at 11:48am |
ShanyGuild Master
Posts : 3313
Joined: 19 JUN 2003
Status : Online | I don't think I'll buy this one, the review says there are alot of stealth sequences...
Also, for a review that talks alot about how well the game's plot is presented, it didn't say what that plot was...
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| 18 APR 2006 at 3:43pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | If you're like me, you've been waiting for Dreamfall for what seems like an eternity. There isn't much opportunity anymore to play adventure games that share the qualities of new and good, and Dreamfall seemed like it might break some new ground for the genre. Unfortunately, it doesn't. While Dreamfall attempts to incorporate action elements, it just doesn't work. The stealth and battle systems are woefully underdeveloped. This wouldn't have been a big deal if there was still an enjoyable array of puzzles, but those too were drastically simplified. It almost seems as though design decisions were made to scale back the puzzles to make way for the awful action elements. Whereas the first The Longest Journey was criticized for illogical puzzles, Dreamfall went too far in the opposite direction. With the exception of one or two sequences, figuring out what to do in Dreamfall is as simple as tying your shoe.
Oh, dear. I realise this is just one review, but it does seem to confirm exactly what I'd always feared would happen with Dreamfall: that the puzzles would be dumbed down and largely supplanted by dull action and stealth sequences. I'll still wait and see what other reviewers say, and what the demo is like, but a review like this doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm for the game.
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| 18 APR 2006 at 4:06pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Randy-JA (18 APR 2006 4:35am)
I wouldn't expect to see a review of Dreamfall at any of the adventure sites too soon as Funocm and Aspyr have decided to provide advance copies of Dreamfall to sites like Gamespot and IGN instead of supporting the adventure community that supported them when none of the big sites wanted to review Longest Journey. Funcom seems to only care about mainstream like New York Times, Gamespot et al
This just leads to more credibility that the IGN review is accurate. Looks like Dreamfall will be just another dumbed down adventure trying to appeal to the masses. Funcom has shot themselves in the foot on this one.
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| 18 APR 2006 at 5:17pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
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Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
As stated from the beginning, I will withold final judgment on this and all other new games until all the full reviews, a playable demo and qualified player feedback are available.
Based solely on this one review though, what many classic AG fans feared seems to have happened. The original gameplay formula used to such great effect in TLJ has been replaced with too much action / stealth in order to appeal to the console and PC action crowd, and worse those new elements have not been executed very well.
If this is true, then I'll repeat my original complaint that too many traditional AG studios are failing to follow all the precedents long established for good, fun, action-oriented gameplay. They see the need to include these things in their newer titles for the obvious reasons (expanding market appeal). But they then fail utterly to adapt to the newer tools and technology required to properly integrate the new components.
I believe this has more to do with ego than anything else - with the attitude that if they are so good at one style of game design and production, then they must also be fully qualified to handle all types of games. Well, as I have seen in my own industry for years, this simply is not true at all.
For instance, most great cartoonists are not also great landscape oil painters or technical illustrators. Classically trained opera singers often delivery stiff, dull, overbearing renditions of soulful pop songs. Only rare dramatic actors can also handle comedy and vice versa. Same with writers, other performers and most creative types.
Like them or not, it takes a special mindset and a different set of skills / experience to create great interactive action games set in full 3D real-time gameworlds. What works for static, 2D point & click formats does not translate to this new environment easily and arbitrarily borrowing basic action elements to use in tandem with AG stories, dialog, exploration and puzzles is a lot harder than it first appears.
Why then don't more classic AG studios simply hire at least one or two talented, experienced action game specialists to handle those aspects of newer titles when they have a decent budget for a new type of hybrid game (and Funcom did in this case)? Why assume that the same people who make classic AGs can automatically compete with seasoned action game veterans in their area of expertise? Why not combine the skills of both in a hybrid team to assure that both styles of gameplay which will be married in a new game be as good as possible?
Cheers, Terry
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| 18 APR 2006 at 6:16pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | So much for withholding judgement...
I don't expect Dreamfall to be an adventure, anyway. I fully expected an action-adventure and maybe a good one at that. With a little bit of adventure thrown in for good measure.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 18 APR 2006 at 7:05pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By Elfstone (18 APR 2006 6:16pm)
So much for withholding judgement...
I don't expect Dreamfall to be an adventure, anyway. I fully expected an action-adventure and maybe a good one at that. With a little bit of adventure thrown in for good measure.
What part of "Based solely on this one review" and "If this is true" did you not understand?
For the rest, the generally poor implementation of action elements by traditional AG studios when they have switched from static 2D point & click non-action titles to full 3D action hybrids is hardly breaking news. There have been numerous examples including the many original problems Funcom had when they decided to shift gears to a MMORPG called Anarchy Online after the success of TLJ - instead of creating another classic-style AG.
However, they did learn a lot from the experience and were able to eventually fix many of these serious problems. And as I mentioned in an earlier JA+ forum thread on Dreamfall, this painful, newly-gained experience with full 3D and action elements led me to believe they could (probably) handle similar components in the upcoming semi sequel to TLJ.
Time will tell but based on the very negative comments about that specific aspect of Dreamfall in IGN's review, it appears as if they were not able to do this very well. Why?
Well, Funcom is obviously a highly talented studio in terms of storytelling, character development, artwork, dialog, voice actor casting / direction, music and puzzles. But they are really not very experienced with full 3D design and real-time, action-oriented gameplay for either the PC or the consoles.
If the IGN review turns out to be accurate in that respect, then my suggestion for a remedy is that Funcom and other developers in a similar position simply hire some talented, experienced 3D action / action-adventure game veterans to assure the same high quality standards are also upheld in those recently added areas of gameplay.
Cheers, Terry
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| 18 APR 2006 at 7:20pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | I understand, Terry. But everything you said up there would be quite the same thing you'd say if it turned out to be a general consensus, isn't that right? Saves time to say it after it is "proven" and anyway, it applies to game X, which might be Dreamfall, but we don't know, yet.
Just joking.
I agree with you and I can understand the point from adventure players. I play more than one genre (or used to) and could live with "just" a good action-adventure.
I still haven't read the review. Should do some work, but now I'm curious...
I read it...
IF it's close to the truth as I would see it, that confirms my "fears" about this game:
- 15 hours playing time is quite frankly nothing for a game with apparently "10 minutes conversations"
- combat system isn't that good, but action is not the focus (stealth, more likely)
- consoles destroy the PC as a gaming platform...
Character models and environments on the PC are much sharper, as might be expected, but it's clear that the game's visuals were limited by creating the game on an Xbox. Many textures around the game world on the PC look like they belong on an Xbox, and each character's hair looks particularly bad.
Things I will most likely love are confirmed, too:
- dialog and story (I don't bother how long the conversations are, if they are good)
- nice environments in 3d (camera view sexcluded, those almost always suck)
This would basically meet my expectations. I'd still be game to play it, because of the story and the dialog. I'd just be a little disappointed because stealth isn't that good, either (as opposed to open combat). I expected that to shine a bit.
A rather extreme comparison:
Facial animation suffers as well and pales in comparison to something like Half-Life 2.
So, the amount of truth in this review will be antiporportional to the pissing-off-factor for people who either
a) dislike action and stealth
b) dislike endless dialog
Sounds like an interactive movie to me. The last one I played was pretty damn good.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 18 APR 2006 at 7:49pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Do read the review when you get a few minutes Elfstone and note it is the poor execution of the action sequences in Dreamfall that the writer criticzed - not the fact that Funcom tried to create a fresher kind of 3D hybrid that might appeal to a wider audience on both the PC and the consoles.
Like yourself, I frequently play and thoroughly enjoy a wide variety of games in practically every genre and these days most of them are in full 3D plus they include all sorts of action components. So the talent, experience and tools are all out there for any developer to tap into for any kind of project involving these things.
Bringing up the rear of course are the traditional PC AG studios and they have generally done a bad job of adapting to the newer technology and an especially poor job initially venturing into real-time action. The good news is they are still extremely talented in all other important areas that make AGs good and I would like to see them seamlessly blend those skills with these others to create a whole new generation of 3D action-adventures with great stories, great dialog and great puzzles.
Since AGs are closely related in many ways to RPGs, AG designers could learn a lot about this transition from BioWare, etc. and if necessary they could hire some consultants for as long as it takes to catch up. Once they do, they can then rely on their own expanded skillset to experiment with the full range of cool new possibilities that 3D affords - as well as some innovative new ways to include a little action to help sell their future games to a much, much bigger audience.
In the end, I very much want to see people like Ragnar Tornquist, Tim Schafer, Rand Miller, Benoit Sokol, Jonathan Boakes, Steve Ince, Jane Jensen (if she'd ever come back), and numerous other talented PC AG creators keep making games and succeeding for many years to come. And most of them have already realized that appealing to a wider audience on all systems is going to be necessary if they want to keep getting decent funding from big publishers along with good coverage by the major game media.
Cheers, Terry
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| 18 APR 2006 at 8:04pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | See comments above.
By the way, I thought the review was very good, obviously from somebody who loved everything that was good about The Longest Journey, yet wasn't opposed to the idea of going 3d and more action-oriented.
As you just said yourself, Terry. I repeat that point, because this review sounded fair to me. Whether or not it would/will match with my impression of the game.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 18 APR 2006 at 11:22pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | The Gamespot review is more positive, but it repeats the assertion that there isn't a lot of actual gameplay. I guess it depends where your priorities lie (firmly in the gameplay area in my case, unfortunately.)
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| 18 APR 2006 at 11:44pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Well that review is quite a bit more encouraging.
Gamespot depicts the action as light / infrequent and simple / easy as opposed to poorly executed (as in squirrely, clunky, frustrating controls with no way around them) and from what I've read, there are still some options to work around combat in most cases through stealth and/or dialog.
The rest is a glowing report on great storytelling with equal parts sci-fi and fantasy blended seamlessly together plus lots of interesting characters, plenty of good dialog with world-class voice acting, a little ribald humor (always welcome in games for we free thinking adults), very nice music and amazing locales plus a smattering of inventory puzzles along the way.
I'll still wait for the AG community reviews and a playable demo before deciding to buy the game or not. But learning about Zoe's intelligent purple robot monkey named Wonkers has almost sealed the deal for me. I love funny, endearing sidekicks in third person AGs and wish every title had at least one.
Cheers, Terry
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| 19 APR 2006 at 2:25am |
MikekellyPrivate Detective
Posts : 612
Joined: 25 JUN 2004
Status : Offline |
Found a second review:
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/longestjourney2wt/index.html
An 8.1 is nothing to sneeze at!
I'll assume the action sequences are to keep the xbox people happy.
Console gamers are a different breed.
The review does say that many sequences can be solved a variety of ways and have more than one solution!
My copy is in the mail - and Paradise is right behind it!
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| 19 APR 2006 at 2:40am |
krkdnosePrivate Detective
Posts : 707
Joined: 9 JUN 2004
Status : Online | Gamespy review: 5/5
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dreamfall/702029p1.html
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| 19 APR 2006 at 3:10am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By krkdnose (19 APR 2006 2:39am)
Gamespy review: 5/5
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/dreamfall/702029p1.html
Thanks krkdnose. I only had time to give this a fast read through but feel it supports the IGN review in that this game has a lot of both eye candy and extensive dialouge and not enough on the puzzle side. If you like this sort of thing then that's fine, your probably gonna like this one. I'll definitely be holding out for awhile on this one. I'm still hoping.
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| 19 APR 2006 at 12:41pm |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Randy-JA (18 APR 2006 4:35am)
We will be purchasing a copy next week for review That's really sad! Shame on them!
but have you not noticed that none of the adventure sites have had previews, screenshots, etc of Dreamfall? While Gamespot and IGN have run exclusive previews? In my opinion, the marketing for Dreamfall is the poorest I have seen in the 8 years of doing JA. I hope you've conveyed this to them! It might fall on deaf ears I suppose but it's certainly not worth taking lying down.
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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| 19 APR 2006 at 3:45pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | Funcom probably feels that there is no point in spending any resources marketting to special interest groups like Just Adventure+. Many of us here already suffer from BAAGS (Buy All Adventure Games Syndrome), and most of the fans of The Longest Journey will be sold by the fact that Ragnar Tornqvist's name is on the product. Marketting to a tiny group of people who are slavishly devoted is a waste of time and money, so I can't blame Funcom for neglecting this site. Sure, they could get an easy A+ review if they sent Randy a copy, but is that really worth the cost of postage?
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| 19 APR 2006 at 7:37pm |
SusanGuild Master
Posts : 5485
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Randy-JA (18 APR 2006 4:35am)
We will be purchasing a copy next week for review, but have you not noticed that none of the adventure sites have had previews, screenshots, etc of Dreamfall? I've definitely noticed, as I realized a few days ago that the game was coming out, yet I knew very little about it!
I don't visit non-AG sites, unless I want more infor on a non-AG, so I haven't read any of those reviews yet. I'm more interested in the story and if it's as good as TLJ. (Gameplay is important, yes, but I won't worry about the adventure/action moments until I see them for myself.)
Originally Posted By Crapstorm (19 APR 2006 3:44pm)
Funcom probably feels that there is no point in spending any resources marketting to special interest groups like Just Adventure+. Hmmm
Anybody else remember Randy's TLJ Review? I recall when it was first posted, Randy praised the game, even though it would not be available to those in the U.S. (at the time). [Although there was a handy link to buy the European version from CD Access, which I did.] I guess Funcom missed that one.
I miss my Bubba: 1986 - 2006.
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| 19 APR 2006 at 11:35pm |
MikekellyPrivate Detective
Posts : 612
Joined: 25 JUN 2004
Status : Offline |
I understand this situation completely:
The XBOX version is in the stores as we speak - no PC version to be found yet.
I'm certain the PC version is on it's way - BUT the XBOX version hit the shelves first.
Explains the action sequences, game controller perferred control, graphics quality.
To me - I'm OK with all of that. I'll just be happy when I open my mail box and my PC copy of the game is in there.
8-)
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| 19 APR 2006 at 11:45pm |
ZoderIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 6
Joined: 9 MAY 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Randy-JA (18 APR 2006 4:35am)
I wouldn't expect to see a review of Dreamfall at any of the adventure sites too soon as Funocm and Aspyr have decided to provide advance copies of Dreamfall to sites like Gamespot and IGN instead of supporting the adventure community that supported them when none of the big sites wanted to review Longest Journey. Funcom seems to only care about mainstream like New York Times, Gamespot et al
We will be purchasing a copy next week for review, but have you not noticed that none of the adventure sites have had previews, screenshots, etc of Dreamfall? While Gamespot and IGN have run exclusive previews? In my opinion, the marketing for Dreamfall is the poorest I have seen in the 8 years of doing JA.
Now compare the manner in which Paradise has been marketed, Ubi Soft has provided both the adventure community and the mainstream sites with material, so while they are building grass roots support in the adventure community, they are also attempting to reach the mainstream without doing so at the expense of the adventure community which they realize is their bread and butter.
I agree that they should support the adventure community (not sending a review copy is low) but the mainstream coverage seems to be working.
I've been browsing the Gamespot forum for Dreamfall and have observed the following. People who don't normally play adventure games are excited about the game after reading Greg's review and plan on buying it. But many of them said, up until the review was posted, they never heard of the game. This despite the fact they've had previews on the site for months.
An interesting comment from some has been that Indigo Prophesy was their first adventure and they've been waiting for another game like it. So at first glance, these 2 games are doing what the developers had hoped. Getting people who normally wouldn't play an adventure game to go out and buy them.
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| 19 APR 2006 at 11:50pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Mikekelly (19 APR 2006 11:35pm)
The XBOX version is in the stores as we speak - no PC version to be found yet.
I'm certain the PC version is on it's way - BUT the XBOX version hit the shelves first.
Neither the XBox nor the PC version is available where I live.
For whatever reason, they weren't delivered to the stores on schedule.
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| 20 APR 2006 at 12:31am |
krkdnosePrivate Detective
Posts : 707
Joined: 9 JUN 2004
Status : Online | A quick check at the EBGames website says that there isn't a store within 200 miles of me that has either the PC or Xbox version.
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