| 25 JAN 2003 at 1:26am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (25 JAN 2003 12:41am)
That assumes that the widest possible audience should be a #1 goal of every author. I happen to think that's exactly the reason why so much junk gets shoved down our throats and I am happy to see authors who are willing to pursue their vision even if it costs them some customers (or is "consumers" the more appropriate term?).
AMEN!
and btw i got jenny's point and i didn't say such language HAS TO be used... i said that when it fits (and it fits in this case + Michal's comment about language changing is very accurate) and when the designer wants to use it but doesn't because he's "forced" not to then that's censorship
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 1:42am |
Agustín CordesGuild Master
Posts : 5696
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: AR, Buenos Aires
Status : Offline | I'm against censorship and I don't care about swear words except when they're overused. This happened a few times in TLJ - somehow I had the impression someone said "hey, let's make this game controversial!" and they used as much bad language as they could. It got tiresome every now and then throughout the game.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 1:47am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Rael (25 JAN 2003 1:41am)
I'm against censorship and I don't care about swear words except when they're overused. This happened a few times in TLJ - somehow I had the impression someone said "hey, let's make this game controversial!" and they used as much bad language as they could. It got tiresome every now and then throughout the game.
really? i hate such overuse too but i didn't think that happened in TLJ : anyway it's all a matter of opinion
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 3:40am |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | really? i hate such overuse too but i didn't think that happened in TLJ anyway it's all a matter of opinion
Ditto on that - Flipper was a little on the edge, but still acceptable (by me).
Maybe the next release will include language options !
o Naughty
o Nice
The bottom, line is: We'd all love to see a sequel, so let's get with it...
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 5:23am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (25 JAN 2003 12:41am)
That assumes that the widest possible audience should be a #1 goal of every author.
If the only difference in the game is to omit or change a few words, why not? It's not like you're rewriting the whole plot.
Games cost money to make and the company that provides the funding wants to make a profit. If TLJ had sold twice as many copies as it did sell, wouldn't it have been worth those few words?
It's all very well to say the money doesn't matter and swear until your liver falls out. But the amount of income from sales can make the difference between whether a game gets its sequel or not. And I'd like to see a sequel to both TLJ and TLJ2. (I think Ragnar said once that he envisioned TLJ as a trilogy so I assume there might be a TLJ3 if TLJ2 is made and does well.)
Some things to consider:
How many people would refuse to buy the game unless there was swearing in it?
How many people would buy it without the swearing provided that the speech and characterizations were well done?
How many people didn't buy extra copies of TLJ as gifts because of the swearing in it (even though they enjoyed the game themselves) because they didn't want to offend the gift recipients (or their parents if the giftees are kids)?
You know I'm saying all this without knowing what the story in TLJ2 will be like. Only Ragnar knows that. If TLJ2 is going to have a story that is truly inaccessible to younger gamers, then the swearing becomes less of an issue. Older gamers who don't like the swearing will probably put up with it, as they did with the first game. But if TLJ2 is going to be a modern fairy tale, like TLJ was, I see nothing wrong with cutting out the excess swearing so you can market to younger gamers (or to those who buy gifts for them).
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 1:56pm |
| Deleted User | Ragnar, if you're still reading this, I have one question:
What was the target audience of TLJ? I assume FunCom does some sort of market research for their games, or at least asking themselves the question "What people are likely to buy this game we're planning to make? How many are they? Is it a feasible project?" After all, that's only a basic, reasonable business strategy, especially considering the high development cost (in both time and money) to make a computer game nowadays.
The reason I'm asking this is that people are suggesting here that TLJ was a game for children, or at least one that SHOULD have been a game for children. I on the other hand don't think so. Stark is a dark Blade Runner-ish city void of human compassion, while Arcadia is a pretty harsh and dangerous fantasy world. I didn't think it came off as a fairy-tale world at all. (Not that children should only be exposed to fairy-tales, but anyway...) I think swearing only added to the athmosphere. Some people really talk like that.
The huge power of some words will probably never fade. If you step back a little and think about it, why do people get upset with a game because it involves a fictional character using a colorful language featuring words that relates to sex, but at the same time no one's upset about the fact that people get murdered by others in the same game... :
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 3:41pm |
mszvPrivate Detective
Posts : 751
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Hi all,
On the story - well it seemed rather "fairly tale" like to me. I know, in one of those worlds there are street thugs, but it never seemed to me like April was in any real danger. The Longest Journey is, in my opinion, a classic coming of age quest novel/story, where a person in the magical age between childhood and adulthood goes off on a wonderous adventure, often saving the world. April even has an animal protector! April is a little older than the traditional quest age, but it still works. What's nice in this story is that the questor is a girl/woman, coming of age quest stories usually have boys as the protagonist. I'm not knocking quest stories here - The Lord of the Rings has been described as a classic quest story, and it works for me.
On Runaway and the language - sorry, I never meant to imply that the language in Runaway had to be extreme, you know, lots of swearing. What I was saying was that, since there was a stripper as one of the characters, if the language was off color and there was swearing, that would make sense. There aren't usually a lot of strippers in "magical adventures" and fairy tales!
On games and demographics. Independently produced games, done as a labor of love, particularly when the person has another source of income, don't need to sell a lot. My understanding was that most commercially produced games need to sell a lot. I don't have a problem with that.
On games in general. You know, games, at the very least commercially produced ones, are part of what is often called "mainstream popular culture". You pick and choose what works for you. Heck, when I can find them, they are sold in big electronic or computer stores. How much more populist can you get? There is plenty of stuff out there that isn't part of mainstream popular culture - the small press literary novel, the independent film (hard to see if you aren't in a big city), contemporary art (it is supported by rich people, don't like that, but the upshot is that you can see all kinds of great stuff that almost no one likes), western contemporary classical music (OK, everybody, pick your favorite, can most people name even one composer?), western philosophy (Kant or Aristotle anyone?), and more. Personally, when I buy a commercially produced game I like, I'm just happy that ANY part of popular culture appeals to me. I suppose I'm a "glass is half full" person when it comes to popular culture.
All for now.
Regards, mszv
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 3:58pm |
Mr_2_uIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 20
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I didnt even notice the swearing in TLJ!
Must be just me.
Adventure games Forever
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 4:43pm |
GayleSchattenjger
Posts : 2544
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I didn't notice either until someone on a board I go to was outraged by the swearing in the game and stopped playing the game. That was a little extreme, I would say.
They are just words. I really just get bored if every other word that comes out of a person's mouth is a swear word. Who cares, what they do it for the shock value. Not shocked.
The other part which no one mentions is that fact that the landlady was gay. No one says anything about that but a few swear words and some are up in arms.
I could care less about anyone being gay or anyone swearing in a game or real life so neither thing even was a second thought, just part of the story and the story flow. Just merrily went on my way enjoying one of the best games I have ever played.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 4:52pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Gayle (25 JAN 2003 4:43pm)
I didn't notice either until someone on a board I go to was outraged by the swearing in the game and stopped playing the game. That was a little extreme, I would say.
there are a lot of hysterical "defenders of morality" out there you know... their main purpose is to annoy the rest of the world :
The other part which no one mentions is that fact that the landlady was gay. No one says anything about that but a few swear words and some are up in arms.
AT LEAST noone says anything about that... would make things even more ridiculous... i say make April gay in TLJ2 if only to see the reactions of the moral minority!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 5:30pm |
InlandAZGuild Master
Posts : 5586
Joined: 4 MAY 2007
Status : Offline | there are a lot of hysterical "defenders of morality" out there you know... their main purpose is to annoy the rest of the world
Yes, and in the States some of them are married to Congressmen - who pass laws (Gore, and her infamous rating system for the music industry).
But back to the game - the language didn't bother me at all... What's next Literature? Should we ban The Lord of the Flies, Huckleberry Finn?
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 7:03pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (25 JAN 2003 5:23am)
If the only difference in the game is to omit or change a few words, why not? It's not like you're rewriting the whole plot.
Please do not take this personally - but that's what the censors always say. "Just delete this one scene, just take out this paragraph and everything will be fine".
Games cost money to make and the company that provides the funding wants to make a profit. If TLJ had sold twice as many copies as it did sell, wouldn't it have been worth those few words?
What else should the creators do to get a few extra sales?
How many people would refuse to buy the game unless there was swearing in it?
Probably none.
How many people would buy it without the swearing provided that the speech and characterizations were well done?
Probably many.
How many people didn't buy extra copies of TLJ as gifts because of the swearing in it (even though they enjoyed the game themselves) because they didn't want to offend the gift recipients (or their parents if the giftees are kids)?
I have no idea. I'd also like to know how many people bought the game because there was swearing in it.
I forgot my sig.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 7:08pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Gayle (25 JAN 2003 4:43pm)
The other part which no one mentions is that fact that the landlady was gay. No one says anything about that but a few swear words and some are up in arms.
Of course they can't mention that. That would be - God forbid - politically incorrect
Why is it okay to kill people but not to swear? That's what gets me.
I forgot my sig.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 7:27pm |
mszvPrivate Detective
Posts : 751
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I don't think anyone is talking about such things as banning games, that sort of thing. No, the "language" in The Longest Journey didn't bother me, I barely noticed it. Other people were bothered by it, but what's wrong with people being bothered by the use of the "F word"? Does that make them, what, morally objectionable, prudish people? I don't think so.
Would I give the game to someone who wanted to play it with their children, no. Would I play it with children, I'm not sure. I use some of those words myself, but I dearly hope I know when to use then, and when not to use them, and I try very hard to not overuse them. For children, I would like them to know the difference, and I'm sure not going to encourage any children I know to use those words - they'll be using them soon enough! I don't think that makes those of us who think the language in the game limits the audience to be any of those things that were mentioned above. What is being said is that language limits your audience. Some people also remarked that they personally don't like that kind of language, and I think that's fine. I realize that the acceptability and the use of "off color" language varies by country and culture. I have no idea what it's like, outside the US, but if you want the game to sell to all sorts of people in the US, including many people in the US who play it with their children, you have to eliminate some of the "language". It's a game I think children would like (though too hard, I think, for most children to play by themselves), it's even got a talking bird!
As for literature, Huckelberry Finn is not a children's book (though oddly enough, because it has children in it, it's given to children to read), nor is The Lord of the Flies, nor is Lolita by Nabokov, nor is Ulysses by James Joyce, nor are a lot of other books. Some books are not meant for children, because of content, or language, or both, or because they are written so that no child can understand them.
Regards, mszv
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 7:51pm |
GayleSchattenjger
Posts : 2544
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | People can be bothered by whatever bothers them. If they are bothered by the F word, fine.
The sad point is that the ones who were so bothered by a word that they stopped playing a game is sad. A word, no less, that turns into nothingness as soon as it leaves the lips and did not result in hurting anyone in a game and in life.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 8:02pm |
| Deleted User | Tsk - You leave a THE LONGEST JOURNEY 2 forum alone for a day and looks what happens, it becomes a discourse on censorship in mainstream culture!
Glad to see some things never change.
Although, it has to be said - TLJ a game that's on the same level as Star Wars? Not quite! Lesbian landladies, naked blue men, rape threats, evil corporations with zombies, Flipper and his leg-rage, young homeless kids getting into s h i t, BG characters getting harassed by cops and drinking and all... it's pretty non-conformist schtuff, and all this before the swearing!
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 8:04pm |
| Deleted User | (5 mins later) But thinking about Star Wars, wasn't their limb removal, Solo shooting first, holes being blasted in people and larynxs' getting crushed at a distance?
The they got re-done, like ET with the whole guns/walkie-talkies thing...
AARGH!
RAGNAR - don't do a full 3D remake of TLJ in the future and tone it down - we know where you live! Well, not really, but we might do!
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 8:14pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By monkeybone (25 JAN 2003 8:01pm)
Glad to see some things never change.
Are you really?
Although, it has to be said - TLJ a game that's on the same level as Star Wars? Not quite! Lesbian landladies, naked blue men, rape threats, evil corporations with zombies, Flipper and his leg-rage, young homeless kids getting into s h i t, BG characters getting harassed by cops and drinking and all... it's pretty non-conformist schtuff, and all this before the swearing!
I don't know, except for the naked blue men that doesn't sound like anything terribly out of the ordinary.
I forgot my sig.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 8:21pm |
Drooling_IguanaIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 6
Joined: 23 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (25 JAN 2003 8:14pm)
I don't know, except for the naked blue men that doesn't sound like anything terribly out of the ordinary. That reminds me of another thing I'd like to add to my "things I'd like to see in TLJ2" list: olmari nude scenes, and lots of 'em! Female, preferrably.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 10:13pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By mszv (25 JAN 2003 7:27pm)
I don't think anyone is talking about such things as banning games, that sort of thing. No, the "language" in The Longest Journey didn't bother me, I barely noticed it. Other people were bothered by it, but what's wrong with people being bothered by the use of the "F word"? Does that make them, what, morally objectionable, prudish people? I don't think so.
if someone's bothered by the F word or by anything else is perfectly fine... anyone has the right to like/dislike anything he/she wants... the problem begins when those who are bothered try to FORCE their opinions to the whole world... are you bothered by the F word? (not you personally - just to avoid misunderstandings!) Fine... don't listen to it... don't watch such movies, don't listen to such music and don't play such games... LEAVE THE REST OF US ALONE... plain and simple
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 25 JAN 2003 at 11:34pm |
| Deleted User | I don't know, except for the naked blue men that doesn't sound like anything terribly out of the ordinary.
LOL!
I think you've got a point here though. It takes contemporary situations and puts them in a future context. It's realism (aside from the art college - I don't remember ANY art college I attended that was that CLEAN!) and gritty edge was what seperated it from many of the other games available.
*What follows is real midnight train-of-thought-stuff, folks!*
It's more comparable to GK3 than, say, Syberia. Syberia is a gift item - no swearing, beautiful work of art that it is. Yup - girlfriend just recieved it in the mail today and it's FANTASTIC!
If TLJ2 came ANYWHERE near to the perfectionism of those graphics, then I'll die a happy adventuring bunny.
Anyhow, that reminds me of something.
Is there someone in the games industry that ACTUALLY STUDIES HUMAN MOVEMENT and ANIMATION? I went to an VFX discourse in the BFI recently where one of the top Dreamworks ladies was lamenting the lack of truly talented animators in the industry - kids that knew loads of stuff about Maya, Lightwave et al but hadn't even read Richard Williams' Survival Guide or even looked at a Muybridge photomontage.
Ragnar - if you're gonna use 3D animation, you gotta do the best job you can to get total immersion. Story, hell, a good story is great, narrative and speech, fine, but if we're trying to relate to characters that move like chunks a wood (or Syberia's automatons) then you might as well go back to text adventures.
With the graphical advances we have today (although I'd understand if you threw budgetary limitations in my face!) there's no excuse for not using realistic human animation.
PLEASE, if you can, implement this! It'd be great!
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| 26 JAN 2003 at 12:57am |
chadIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 39
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online |
Ragnar let me start by saying that I think you are a genus and what you did with the TLJ was one of the most epic examples of story telling in resent history comparable to the Lord of The Rings. I am not one that is known to exaggerate either. I know people who fill like there way of thinking has been changed by this game in the same way that a good book or movie might. All that I could suggest for TLJ2 would be to not chang the interface, spend as much time on the back ground of NPC's as you did on the last, and also to not make it to over the top. ( For example the new planet of the apes) Thanks for taking an interest in what your very loyal fans have to say and I'm sure that how ever you go about making the new TLJ it will be gold.
Thanks for your time,
chad
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| 27 JAN 2003 at 5:36am |
| Deleted User | Hmm, I take back what good I said about Ragnar earlier. I apologize to other posters that thought he had sense as well. It seems he's still a bitter old dude that just can't be friendly with people. It's really amusing to see someone, whom I thought to be a respectable person, turn into a bitter and bickering old woman. Read his journal response (the sarcasm and self-indulgent entries) to some of the threads that dimi started and I participated in here if you like:
http://www.ragnartornquist.com/thoughts.html
I've also posted a response to it and the other thread here:
http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=AdvGameDiscuss;action=display;num=1043150868;start=0
Then there's always Tolkien to read, Lord of the Rings or Babylon 5 to watch, Viggo Mortensen to admire, and Syberia to play ;-)
Take care, all.
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| 27 JAN 2003 at 7:52am |
| Deleted User | Babylon 5
And you were doing so well...
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