| 26 DEC 2005 at 3:08am |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
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Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | Well, if you take it that time travel sends one to simply one potential timeline/parallel dimension (which would sidestep many of the paradox issues involved), I suppose it would have to be considered murder, since you are killing a different "you." To put it a different way, you of this timeline are killing the you of a different timeline.
Now, if you are talking about future time travel only, and view what you see in the future as only one possibility which will not be actualized until it becomes the "present," then I'm not sure you could consider it murder or suicide, since you'd only be killing something which only potentially exists but does not actually exist.
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 3:15am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Phew...too much eggnog must have been consumed. Ummm, I'll go with what Pastor said to a certain degree. I would think it falls under the description of murder. The only part I disagree with is the whole 'not really exist' thing. It would exist.
<pouring more eggnog....>
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 3:22am |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (26 DEC 2005 3:15am)
Phew...too much eggnog must have been consumed. Ummm, I'll go with what Pastor said to a certain degree. I would think it falls under the description of murder. The only part I disagree with is the whole 'not really exist' thing. It would exist.
<pouring more eggnog....>
Well, it does come down to the question of whether the timeline you are currently experiencing is the only "real" one, with the rest being merely potential. That distinction only works for future travel (see Mute by Piers Anthony for a good explanation of it). But if every timeline is equally "actual," then yeah, your future self would exist and it would be murder.
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 4:16am |
IviniaGuild Master
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Location: US
Status : Offline | But who is to judge what is the 'real' one? I'm sure your future self would feel his/her world was the real one and that the time traveling you is is the alternate.
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 4:34am |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (26 DEC 2005 4:16am)
But who is to judge what is the 'real' one? I'm sure your future self would feel his/her world was the real one and that the time traveling you is is the alternate.
Reminds me of a Stargate episode where Teal'c shoots an alternate version of himself:
O'Neill: "The idea was to zat him."
Teal'c: "As I said, O'Neill. Ours is the only reality of consequence."
Not a particularly scientific or nuanced response, but I'm not going to argue with the big guy!
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 11:18am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
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Location: AU
Status : Offline | But if the Caroline of 26th December went back in time to kill the Caroline of the 25th December, immediately after the deed, the murderous Caroline would cease to exist because she was from the same timeline of the dead Caroline. So.....the inspector will ask "who was it killed Caroline on the 25th in the study with the iron pipe.....?" :
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 4:15pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
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Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
However, even if there were more than one timeline, the future Caroline (B) who killed the past Caroline (A) would still be considered just one of many possible Carolines to the victim herself - rendering the murderer a "non-existent" entity (more accurately, a yet-existent possible entity) in the reality of the timeline wherein Caroline A was killed. This would also hold true to the investigator, prosecutor, judge and jury should Caroline B get caught in the act.
Of course if only one reality / timeline exists, then Caroline B would cease to exist the instant she killed Caroline A. In effect, she would be committing suicide. But even if viewed by authorites as a murderer, she could not be tried and punished because she would no longer be.
Now, what if an alternate future Caroline (C) were to travel backwards in time simultaneously and prevent Caroline B from murdering Caroline A by killing her. Would that negate the possibility that Caroline B could ever exist in the future and would it be considered justifiable homocide or not? If not, why not?
Cheers, Terry
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 9:03pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
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Location: AU
Status : Offline | But if Caroline B murders Caroline A on the 25th December, then doesn't Caroline B become not only extinct but an impossibility therefore she couldn't possibly kill Caroline A. Therefore everything that Caroline B did in the first reality after the murder wouldn't actually have happened, ie, the selection of weapon and the travelling back in time. So wouldn't that actually mean that B couldn't kill A?
As the Doc would say "Marty that would create a time paradox that would unravel the very fabric of the time/space continum."
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 9:34pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Or as Miguel of Fawlty Towers would say, "Que?" :-?
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 10:02pm |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4038
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | It's either too much eggnog or too many viewings of It's a Wonderful Life.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 26 DEC 2005 at 11:50pm |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you before you would've read it.
Global question is; are you you? Is the person who is taking the toxic pills now the same person who dies in 4 minutes and wouldn't that make any suicide a murder on the future you, even without timetravel? I think some definition as basic as 'murder' and 'suicide' is not really appropriate here
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| 27 DEC 2005 at 12:46am |
jedicriSpace Cadet
Posts : 111
Joined: 13 MAR 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Caroline, Supreme Goddess (26 DEC 2005 9:03pm)
But if Caroline B murders Caroline A on the 25th December, then doesn't Caroline B become not only extinct but an impossibility therefore she couldn't possibly kill Caroline A. Therefore everything that Caroline B did in the first reality after the murder wouldn't actually have happened, ie, the selection of weapon and the travelling back in time. So wouldn't that actually mean that B couldn't kill A?
As the Doc would say "Marty that would create a time paradox that would unravel the very fabric of the time/space continum."
UGhh, too heavy for me, lol. Too many "ifs" and "buts". For simplicity's sake, if it's that simple for that matter, let's just go with the Doc. That's one time travel movie I actually understood and enjoyed. I believe the idea found in the Back to the Future trilogy supports the idea chronnotigger brings up.
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| 27 DEC 2005 at 5:33pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
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Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By Caroline, Supreme Goddess (26 DEC 2005 9:03pm)
But if Caroline B murders Caroline A on the 25th December, then doesn't Caroline B become not only extinct but an impossibility therefore she couldn't possibly kill Caroline A. Therefore everything that Caroline B did in the first reality after the murder wouldn't actually have happened, ie, the selection of weapon and the travelling back in time. So wouldn't that actually mean that B couldn't kill A?
As the Doc would say "Marty that would create a time paradox that would unravel the very fabric of the time/space continum."
Well of course currently existent Caroline. But that would ruin all the fun of science fiction threads like this.
Besides, the multiple timeline / reality theory is much cooler because it avoids this paradox and allows alternate versions of the same person to exist.
Cheers, Terry
.
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| 27 DEC 2005 at 9:06pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
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Location: AU
Status : Offline | Divergent timelines? So, there is only ONE timeline until 26th December when Caroline B goes back in time, bludgeons Caroline A to death and then returns to her own time. When, quite clearly Caroline A has not been killed. Because, if there were only one reality then on the 26th we'd have Caroline A's dead body and Caroline B walking around.
But what if this was commonplace and happened a lot? Then we'd be opening new alternative timelines willy nilly all over the place. No, I can't accept the existence of alternative universes. For one thing where would all the matter come from?
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| 27 DEC 2005 at 9:13pm |
MorgausePrivate Detective
Posts : 687
Joined: 2 SEP 2004
Status : Online | Bah! Time travel is so confusing even divinities can't get it right. So, why bother about it? Sleep tight: we watch out for you.
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| 27 DEC 2005 at 9:53pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
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Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Originally Posted By Caroline, Supreme Goddess (27 DEC 2005 9:05pm)
Divergent timelines? So, there is only ONE timeline until 26th December when Caroline B goes back in time, bludgeons Caroline A to death and then returns to her own time. When, quite clearly Caroline A has not been killed. Because, if there were only one reality then on the 26th we'd have Caroline A's dead body and Caroline B walking around.
But what if this was commonplace and happened a lot? Then we'd be opening new alternative timelines willy nilly all over the place. No, I can't accept the existence of alternative universes. For one thing where would all the matter come from?
In an infinitely large, multi-dimensional universe, matter wouldn't matter. It would simply occupy the same space but in a multitude of different dimensions each with its own (possibly unique) configuration.
These individual alternate dimensions would follow an infinite number of possible timelines / realities. In some, there may be no Caroline at all. In others the whole human race might not exist due to any number of possiblities - like the lack of an Ice Age wherein dinosaurs never became extinct and our earliest ancestors failed to survive.
In that case, we would never have evolved in the first place. Instead, perhaps some other species rose above the food chain, gained the ability to think intelligently, invented an alphabet, created civilization and became dominant on a planetary scale. Maybe all the cities would be on or under the water where the primary residents had flippers with cute bottle-shaped noses and spoke in high-pitched squeaking sounds. Or maybe insects would rule.
Or not...
Cheers, Terry
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| 28 DEC 2005 at 12:16am |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Or perhaps the universal laws are non-random and therefore the outcome is always the same - meaning you can't change anything as if you go back, you already did. You can go back and try to shoot Hitler but you can't as he never was shot in the first place.
Then again, perhaps you are the one who's 'dreaming' the universe meaning that whatever direction you go there isn't a universe with a future or past, just a now - meaning that what you do changes time in such a way you yourself are not effected as nobody but you is real...
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| 29 DEC 2005 at 7:19pm |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | We haven't even begun to address the sheer physics paradoxes involved.
1. Law of Conservation of Matter/Energy: If I, being a hefty 240 pounds, traveled 20 years back in time, then 20 years ago there was suddenly 240 pounds of more matter that appeared; likewise, there would be 240 pounds less matter today.
2. Spatial orientation: If you were to travel in time but not in space, most likely you would appear in outer space, since the earth, and indeed the entire solar system, galaxy and universe, has moved in that interval.
But perhaps I'm making too much of this.
I like Parrot's idea of an unchangeable past--that whatever you do has already happened. Therefore, no matter how hard you try, it would be logically impossible to kill your former self.
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 29 DEC 2005 at 10:19pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
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Location: AU
Status : Offline | Are you trying to suggest that all our stories, movies etc that feature time travel are simply made up nonsense?
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| 30 DEC 2005 at 1:26am |
starventureSorcerer Apprentice
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Status : Online | Law of Conservation of Matter/Energy
I do not believe this law would be broken because of time travel. If I added water to a glass, the system of the water and the glass gains mass. That doesn't violate the Law. All the law says is that mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed. Going back in time adds mass to a particular system but doesn't create new mass. You just have to think of your system as the entire universe from inception to destruction. Then mass/energy is conserved reguardless of time travel.
Of course this requires that when you go back in time you no longer exist in what would be considered your present time.
But time travel forward has already happened. Astronauts are seconds (or parts of a second, I forget) in the future because of the relitavistic effects they experience in the shuttle, ect.
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| 30 DEC 2005 at 6:24pm |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By starventure (30 DEC 2005 1:26am)
Law of Conservation of Matter/Energy
I do not believe this law would be broken because of time travel. If I added water to a glass, the system of the water and the glass gains mass. That doesn't violate the Law. All the law says is that mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed. Going back in time adds mass to a particular system but doesn't create new mass. You just have to think of your system as the entire universe from inception to destruction. Then mass/energy is conserved reguardless of time travel.
Of course this requires that when you go back in time you no longer exist in what would be considered your present time.
But time travel forward has already happened. Astronauts are seconds (or parts of a second, I forget) in the future because of the relitavistic effects they experience in the shuttle, ect.
But what if I go back in time 10 minutes and prevent my former self from entering the time machine? Now there are two of me operating simultaneously. There are two ways of resolving this, I suppose: (1) Parrot's proposal that the past is fixed, therefore I would be unable (for whatever reason) to prevent my former self from entering the machine, or (2) the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy would have to be expanded to include alternate universes/timelines (so that my mass vanished from the original timeline, only to double in the new timeline). Number 2 would necessitate that all alternate timelines run concurrently. In other words, one timeline is not split into two different ones when a decision-event happens; rather, two different timelines run identical to one another until that decision-event, at which point they begin to differ.
Okay, my head's starting to hurt...
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 31 DEC 2005 at 3:17am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
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Location: AU
Status : Offline | Concurrent alternavite timelines would involve million, nay, trillions of different timelines. Because, just as in chess, if one move is made there are many possible future moves all with their own slightly different possible gameplay repsonses.
So, at what point in history do all these timelines spring into creation? In order for them to have always existed there has to be some masterplan limiting the numbers possible. What if the timelines started diverging only when intelligent life (animals) started making decisions about what to eat.
What about divergent timelines for every planet and every civilisation. How far across space does the alternative possibility reach? Are there some alternative universes where Mars is inhabited?
With each passing moment, billions of decisions are taken by billions of humans - do all these decisions create alternative timelines and multiple copies of the people here
on earth?
Is it possible this is the reason the universe is expanding and galaxies are rushing away from each other? They need the space to accommodate all those extra alternative dimensional copies of themselves?
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