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| 19 NOV 2005 at 4:28am |
| Deleted User | Aaaahhh.... yes, the Wandering Eye. :
This is a clear case where tangible hints have an advantage over virtual ones. Let's get the wonderful [size=18][glb]Invisiclues[/glb] back: hints when you need them without spoiling your fun.
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 4:40am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Hmmmm, excellent point!
Have you emailed UHS your idea? I believe they (he) frequents these forums.
I have to totally agree with you. In looking for just the hint I want, the questions tend to give away what is next. :-/
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 5:27am |
tmalusIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 11
Joined: 19 NOV 2005
Status : Online | I actually sent an email to them quite a long time ago but apparently they don't think this is important. It would be nice if it's available as an optional feature. As a result I restrain myself from using uhs, which is not necessarily a bad thing anyway
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 5:35am |
tmalusIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 11
Joined: 19 NOV 2005
Status : Online | Speaking about invisiclue, shouldn't we have an option to make invisible text when posting a message? Something like ***spoiler: ________ end*** and those text will only be visible when you drag over them.
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 10:02am |
Frank BPrivate Detective
Posts : 449
Joined: 10 JAN 2005
Status : Online | I don't understand why they cannot make those UHS systems so they follow the progress you make in the game. When you start out in a game, you have a certain number of places you can explore, so the hint system should start by only revealing those places. When you then solve a puzzle, which allows you to progress to other places, the hints about these new places should be placed inside the hint with the puzzle. I don't think they take enough advantage of the power of tree structures. You can make these very complex, and it should be possible to make a system where you can follow a path through the three, which coresponds to the path you have taken through the game. It is certainly wrong to reveal all places in the first menu you see when you enter UHS.
I actually prefer walkthroughs over the UHS system, because they follow your progress more closely, and they seldom reveal too much (if you don't read on of course :-)).
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 11:54am |
SusanGuild Master
Posts : 5485
Joined: 13 OCT 2002
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Yes, there have been times when I've avoided UHS Hints because I know if I go and I'm having trouble on chapter 4 & see links to the other chapters, I'll know that the game has only 7 chapters total. I don't want to know how close I am to the end.
I miss my Bubba: 1986 - 2006.
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 2:02pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | Hey, me too! I really liked UHS in the beginning, but I think they have gotten sloppy in how they organize their menus. A huge walkthrough can be much safer in terms of spoiler avoidance, because you can use a text search that will only take you to parts containing your key word.
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 2:18pm |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Games are rarely so linear that any method of providing hints is foolproof. UHS is probably better system when compared to a standard walkthrough but then it does depend on how the UHS hierarchy has been setup and indeed how [well/badly] the walkthrough has been written!
The only foolproof method for hints to ask on a forum. In days of old I used to play the same game as some firends at work and we used to have a great time exchanging the smallest hints possible the next morning in readiness for the evening's play!
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 2:26pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Yes, that's a huge problem for me, too. Often times it's better to ask for hints or look inside a walkthrough. In the latter you can still see how far you got approximately, but you won't know how many chapters there are in the game, if any.
However, I couldn't think of a way to avoid that, except making the UHS files searchable and hide the general layout. Sort of like Invisi-Clues combined with the advantages of UHS, if you like.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 2:36pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Elfstone (19 NOV 2005 2:25pm)
However, I couldn't think of a way to avoid that, except making the UHS files searchable and hide the general layout. Sort of like Invisi-Clues combined with the advantages of UHS, if you like.
I try to avoid reading the WT and search for a specific word instead. Usually works for linear games, but may also give away too much for non-linear ones. I agree that a combination of Invisclues and UHS should be feasible.
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 4:31pm |
Chris.Schattenjger
Posts : 1842
Joined: 8 MAR 2005
Status : Online | How did Invisiclues work?
...not to be confused with Keira Knightley
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 6:52pm |
AvatarPrivate Detective
Posts : 661
Joined: 3 JAN 2004
Status : Online | Was "Invisiclues" the books with the pen that revealed the invisible ink? I seem to remember that for "Zork II"...
I still like this idea for an "online" spoiler:
Drag for spoiler --> Hello! Here I am... a spoiler!
My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dog already thinks I am.&&&&The measure of civility in a society is not how it treats those that are loved, but how it treats those that are hated.
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 6:59pm |
SkyeSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 348
Joined: 20 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Avatar (19 NOV 2005 6:52pm)
Was "Invisiclues" the books with the pen that revealed the invisible ink? I seem to remember that for "Zork II"...
I still like this idea for an "online" spoiler:
Those were the ones! A problem with them though, was that they weren't permanent. The clues would stay visible for a few months then fade away and there didn't seem to be any way to bring them back. A bit of a bugger if you decided to replay the game and had forgotten how to solve a puzzle.
I like the idea of the drag to reveal style of spoiler for forums. It works very well
Skye
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| 19 NOV 2005 at 7:07pm |
snowtimeJourneyman
Posts : 1014
Joined: 28 JUN 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Frank B (19 NOV 2005 10:01am)
I don't understand why they cannot make those UHS systems so they follow the progress you make in the game. When you start out in a game, you have a certain number of places you can explore, so the hint system should start by only revealing those places. When you then solve a puzzle, which allows you to progress to other places, the hints about these new places should be placed inside the hint with the puzzle. I don't think they take enough advantage of the power of tree structures. You can make these very complex, and it should be possible to make a system where you can follow a path through the three, which coresponds to the path you have taken through the game. It is certainly wrong to reveal all places in the first menu you see when you enter UHS.
I actually prefer walkthroughs over the UHS system, because they follow your progress more closely, and they seldom reveal too much (if you don't read on of course :-)).
That would be one way of doing it. However, it would be a real pain if you got stuck near the end of the game and had to slog through pages and pages of irrelevant hints to get to the bit you wanted.
I do think that the UHS hints are very variable in their quality. Some are really well written and thoughtfully structured. Others are really sloppy and unhelplful. Sometimes they are just plain wrong. I recently discovered a hint for a puzzle in REAH which claimed that the only way to solve the puzzle was by trial and error when in fact it was an entirely logical solution. Just goes to show that the hints are only as good as the people writing them.
The same is true for hints on this forum. Some people don't really know what is meant by the phrase "subtle nudge in the right direction" and can give you the whole solution when you were just looking for a clue. Then again some people don't respond well to subtle nudges.
*
*
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.
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| 20 NOV 2005 at 2:31am |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Hm, I wasn't thinking of the original InvisiClues.
I was rather thinking of those pop-up thingies you could run next to your IF game, unlocked by various keywords...was there even something like that? It's just hear-say, never really used those... (too young for that)
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 20 NOV 2005 at 3:44am |
| Deleted User | I feel that it's the nature of the beast. If you need hints, you just have to be very selective with what you read. I have run into the occassional spoiler, but I've gotten better at having tunnel vision... sort of the same way that web page banners have no effect on my--I just don't look.
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| 20 NOV 2005 at 12:04pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Elfstone (20 NOV 2005 2:30am)
Hm, I wasn't thinking of the original InvisiClues.
I was rather thinking of those pop-up thingies you could run next to your IF game, unlocked by various keywords...was there even something like that? It's just hear-say, never really used those... (too young for that)
Aahhh! Yes! The very funny text adventure Humbug had online hints. First you typed "hint" to make the pop-up appear with a short description of one or more *location-specific* problems and a number of codes. Nothing was revealed about the rest of the game. Then you could type the codes to see gentle nudges or the so-called Sledgehammer Hints. Great system!
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| 20 NOV 2005 at 3:55pm |
Frank BPrivate Detective
Posts : 449
Joined: 10 JAN 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By snowtime (19 NOV 2005 7:06pm)
However, it would be a real pain if you got stuck near the end of the game and had to slog through pages and pages of irrelevant hints to get to the bit you wanted.
But many times you don't know why you are stuck.
You could have missed to pick up an item somewhere, or perhaps you missed a hint by not speaking to someone. It could also be a dead end, or simply that you cannot figure out the solution, even if you have everything you need.
If, for instance, I have missed to pick up an item somewhere, I would rather go through the game from the start until a hint tells me to pick up that thing, than to read the solution to the puzzle (finding out that I miss an item). If I get some help finding the item, I will probably figure out how to solve the puzzle myself.
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| 20 NOV 2005 at 7:48pm |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4038
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By snowtime (19 NOV 2005 7:06pm)
The same is true for hints on this forum. Some people don't really know what is meant by the phrase "subtle nudge in the right direction" and can give you the whole solution when you were just looking for a clue.
That works both ways. When asking for hints, some people are not good at describing where they are in a game and what they have already accomplished. I have found myself playing 20 questions just trying to find out what kind of help is needed.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 20 NOV 2005 at 10:37pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | I wish adventure games would include a cheat code that causes all the hidden hotspots to light up like the flashers on the top of a police car. A screaming klaxon when you're in the vicinity of one would be helpful too.
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| 21 NOV 2005 at 5:58am |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4038
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | [smiley=laughing.gif] That's a very funny image, Crapstorm, if a bit extreme. How about something a little quieter, like sparkling pixels and soft chimes.
Edit: How about talking hot spots? "Hey! Over here! No, dummy! Right here beside the door! Higher. A little higher! You got it! Now here's your reward."
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 21 NOV 2005 at 6:38am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Lady K, Feather Goddess (21 NOV 2005 5:58am)
Edit: How about talking hot spots? "Hey! Over here! No, dummy! Right here beside the door! Higher. A little higher! You got it! Now here's your reward."
LOL, you are getting warmer....colder...warmer...warmer...hot...hot...!
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| 21 NOV 2005 at 10:23am |
| Deleted User | Who remembers the absolutely brilliant built in Hint System in the last three (BRILLIANT) Tex Murphy games ???
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| 22 NOV 2005 at 8:57pm |
JoGuild Master
Posts : 3313
Joined: 3 NOV 2002
Location: AU, Qld.
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By LenG (21 NOV 2005 10:22am)
Who remembers the absolutely brilliant built in Hint System in the last three (BRILLIANT) Tex Murphy games ???
I do!! Thought it a good idea - after all, you didn't have to use them if you didn't need them and no messing around looking for walkthroughs either - perhaps more developers should utilize this idea.
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