| 12 NOV 2005 at 11:19am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | In our school, beating up the bully is considered bullying..... Physical violence is NEVER permitted, no matter how great the provocation.
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| 12 NOV 2005 at 1:35pm |
Sandy_SleuthPrivate Detective
Posts : 556
Joined: 22 JUL 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Caroline, Supreme Goddess (12 NOV 2005 11:19am)
In our school, beating up the bully is considered bullying..... Physical violence is NEVER permitted, no matter how great the provocation.
I'm torn between what you said, and the fact that i would want my son to defend himself. I never want him to just stand there and let someone beat him up. I would certainly defend myself, and i want him to do the same.
You can't reason with someone who is punching you in the face. Defence only Danialson... ( Karate kid )
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| 12 NOV 2005 at 3:49pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Caroline, Supreme Goddess (12 NOV 2005 11:19am)
In our school, beating up the bully is considered bullying..... Physical violence is NEVER permitted, no matter how great the provocation.
Suppose some kids constantly make fun of you. Suppose they call you the worst names. Suppose that there is no way to stop this because they have a liking of doing this. Suppose that it drives you nuts that yo ucan nto do anything about them. If you tell the teaher the teacher does nothing. It's like watching your mother getting raped and not being able to do anything about it. I have a problem with both of these similar scenarios. If someone attacks you, you should be allowed to use physical violence. This attack can be verbal or physical.
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| 12 NOV 2005 at 5:43pm |
Mr. WrecksSpace Cadet
Posts : 118
Joined: 5 OCT 2004
Status : Online | There will always be bullies. My kids have encountered these boys. Where needed I have spoken to the school and the other boy's parents. I don't believe in suffering in silence. I also don't believe that junior school kids are criminals. They are still children and need guidance.
Eggs-actly.
Parents taking action. Parents keeping open communication with their kids. Parents actually parenting.
Kids need guidance - the "bullies" and the "bullied".
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| 12 NOV 2005 at 10:25pm |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | Let's play "Let's Pretend"...
Let's pretend that we are all students in a special school. In this school, every student is given, at the moment they first step foot into the school, a set amount of fake coins, called widgets. The rule is, whoever ends the school year with the most widgets wins.
So far so good?
These widgets are the sole property of the student body. Students dole out the widgets to one another as they see fit. Occasionally teachers try to force students with lots of widgets to give some to students who are widget-poor, but as soon as the teacher turns his/her back, the rich student takes the widget back again.
It gets worse. Students are ranked solely on a curve. So it does not matter how many or how few widgets any one student has; all that matters is the relative number of widgets one has in comparison to everyone else. So you see students constantly counting and re-counting their widgets, and eyeing everyone else's pile suspiciously. Some widget-rich students actually steal widgets from widget-poor students, increasing their own stockpile at the other's expense.
There is danger in trading widgets. Some students are widget-makers, who can give away widgets while still retaining their own amount. Others are widget-drains: if a student gives them one widget, the giver loses several widgets and the receiver still doesn't get any. Most students are widget-neutral: giving a widget to someone else means losing one of their own, and vice-versa.
Part of the job of the teachers in this school is to supervise the widget transactions. They are there to guide the students in buying, selling and trading widgets. The goal of this school is that every student graduate with not only an increased number of widgets than they had when they started, but also with a better understanding of how to operate in the adult world.
However...
The reality is that teachers are universal widget-drains. This is not their fault, in fact most are completely clueless to this fact. Any student who goes to a teacher for help with his/her widgets automatically loses a fistful of widgets. Most students are deathly afraid of teacher intervention in the widget-exchange process. Even those whose widgets are being stolen on a daily basis by other students would rather not get the teachers involved, because that would mean they'd lose even more widgets!
Some students try to opt out of the whole widget process, claiming to ignore the whole business. They gather together in their own "widget-less" enclaves and pride themselves on the fact that they have seen through this pyramid scheme. In reality, all that happens is that they begin to manufacture their own widgets, ones that are not exchangeable with the other widgets; this currency is only good in their own enclave. But the buying, selling and trading of their widgets reflects in minature what is taking place in the student body as a whole.
So who controls the flow of widgets if not the teachers? This is an application of the Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold makes the rules. Those with lots of widgets exert a great deal of authority on the widget-exchange process, even among third-party transactions. Even if you have some widgets you want to exchange, they determine when and with whom you get to do so.
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 12 NOV 2005 at 10:26pm |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | In summary, how does one get ahead? First, be a toady to those with more widgets than you, in the hopes that they will bestow some of their widgets upon you. Second, be a bully to those with less widgets than you; don't associate with them (you could lose widgets in the process), don't trust them (they're only after your widgets, after all), and if you can't get their widgets, at the very least do your best to make sure they don't get any more widgets. Remember, your position is solely determined in relation to everyone else. So making other people lose widgets is the same as getting some of your own! Finally, do not, repeat, DO NOT get the teachers, administration, or your parents involved. In fact, you should just assume that every adult you run across is a widget-drain. No matter how bad it is, it will be worse if an adult gets involved.
It's a dog-eat-dog world, where suppressing someone else is equivalent to advancing yourself. Very few transactions are win-win; mostly it is a zero-sum game. But remember the number one rule: you are not evaluated on your efforts, just on the result. So do whatever it takes, because the ends justify the means.
Here endeth the thought experiment.
What does this have to do with reality? Instead of fake money, the widgets actually represent "social credit": popularity, status, honor, whatever you want to call it. The situation described above pretty accurately reflects what goes on in even the best of public schools. Why? Because the wise adults are not in charge of the social standing. It is the student body, comprised of a bunch of self-centered, paranoid, popularity-starved kids who for the most part have never experienced anything else.
This is why I laugh when our caseworkers strongly recommend we put our children in public school when they're old enough. Remember, we have one son who is autistic and one daughter who has interpersonal problems combined with severe anxiety disorder. The therapists all encourage public school as a way for our kids to get "healthy peer interaction."
I guess I see public school as a classic Darwinian social experiment--survival of the fittest demonstrated with little or no constraints, the equivalent of putting all criminals on an island and letting them govern themselves. Eventually, I suppose, you'd end up with Australia, but not if you keep skimming off those criminals that have been there for 8 years and introducing a new crop every year.
And this from a person who went to a rather good, small, rural public school. So I have not even factored in weapons, drugs, gangs, etc. What really gets me is conservatives who think the problem is uninvolved parents (or overinvolved lawyers), or liberals who think the problem is lack of finances. I think the problem is much more systemic than either.
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 12 NOV 2005 at 10:37pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Thank you Ponder for stating what I thought was obvious.
You know, all our schools, state and private, run functions throughout the school year that are designed to introduce the parents in a class to the other parents. We have social BBQs held after school and on weekends, in the school grounds and parent only dinners in pubs, etc. Class representatives host coffee mornings and 'bring a plate' suppers in their own homes. The sole purpose is to create a sense of community, to introduce parents to each other, to ease difficulties and open communication. Most schools also have contact lists which give parents the contact details of the other children's parents. A lot of school activities are parent-managed which also provides more getting to know each other opportunities.
It's damn hard to remain an 'outsider' under conditions like this.
Also there seems to be the philosophy out here that raising kids is a partnership between parents and school. Ratbag parents exist in all social levels. I know rich parents who give their kids every toy under the sun but no 'family time'. Rich or poor these are the kids that get into the most trouble at school.
Parenting is hard work, tiring and sometimes often boring and inconvenient. isciplined children quickly learn proper social manners and respect for others.
Fighting Back
As I stated, our schools have anti-harrassment laws under which they are obligated to act on complaints by children and/or parents. So, the situation of being consistently bullied should not occur here - but no system is foolproof and parental involvement in their child's life is always a good thing.
When my children started kindergarten the first thing they start teaching the boys is not to push or shove, no sticks, no violent games or toys are allowed. The 'no retaliation' rule is strictly enforced because violence only escalates a problem.
The solution has always been to lodge a formal complaint. They actually encourage kids to tell the bullies how they feel about such behaviour and try to negotiate a better outcome. It's liberating because now the smallest, weakest kid feels under no obligation to prove his manhood with fighting, and he demands and gets justice from the school administration.
My husband came to parenting with the belief that if you get pushed you push back - harder. The school system here has convinced him otherwise. Both of our boys have experienced bullying but the oldest is now 'immune' and knows how to deflect aggression and the younger is learning.
Strength isn't in fighting back - that's letting other people press your buttons. Instead of getting violent, the best strategy is to use a much bigger stick to beat your bully with - the school administration.
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| 14 NOV 2005 at 12:21pm |
TechnoSpikePrivate Detective
Posts : 581
Joined: 26 APR 2005
Location: PT
Status : Offline | Sorry, Pastor, you lost me here...."Madison Avenue"? I didn't get it... ???
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| 14 NOV 2005 at 1:48pm |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By TechnoSpike (14 NOV 2005 12:21pm)
Sorry, Pastor, you lost me here...."Madison Avenue"? I didn't get it... ???
"Madison Avenue" = slang for advertisers.
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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