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| 31 OCT 2005 at 8:44pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jalex (31 OCT 2005 6:36pm)
Is it just me or are adventure games using harder puzzles than ever before?
I think it's just you. Play Pandora Directive and Gabriel Knight 3 and then play Nibiru and Still Life and tell me if you think PD and GK3 are easier? Compare Bone with the Monkey Island games. Compare BS3 with BS1 - the dexterity requirements are greater in BS3 but the actual puzzles are much easier. On average I think puzzles in games are easier than they used to be, not harder.
I'm assuming you're talking about games that put the emphasis on story and characters and not those that emphasize puzzles. It would be kind of stupid to set out to make a puzzler and then make the puzzles so easy a 2 year old could do them - unless you're designing the game for 2 year olds. Difficult puzzles aren't so important in games that are dependent on story and characters.
What's most disappointing is that there are so few games with stories and characters as interesting as the Tex or GK games - or as funny as the LucasArts games.
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| 31 OCT 2005 at 9:01pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (31 OCT 2005 8:44pm)
What's most disappointing is that there are so few games with stories and characters as interesting as the Tex or GK games - or as funny as the LucasArts games.
Is that really true or are some of us longing for 'the good old days'? They were the first of their kind and will always be looked at through rose-colored glasses.
The fact that there were so few games to choose from back then also means we put more time and effort into the ones we played - without the benefit of a walkthrough or online hints. Nothing is more nejoyable or rewarding than solving a puzzle yourself. Today's capabilities and fast-paced life makes going back to those settings difficult at best.
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| 31 OCT 2005 at 9:12pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (31 OCT 2005 9:01pm)
The fact that there were so few games to choose from back then
When exactly is "back then"? According to Adventure-Archiv's statistics, starting with 1993 there were never fewer than 50 adventures published each year. From my own experience I can only say that in the past I had more time to play adventures and less money to buy new ones.
And no, I definitely don't think adventure games are getting harder. Although it could be that I'm just much better at spotting clues.
I forgot my sig.
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| 31 OCT 2005 at 9:22pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | There wasn't any "back then" for me. I started gaming in 1999, years after those older games were created. I played the new ones alongside the old ones. Recently I started replaying GK1 and it was amazing. Made me remember why I liked it when I first played it. Made me think "why can't they make 'em like this anymore." So no I don't think it's rose colored glasses. The older games really had more to them. Not all of them of course. The Scroll was an old game and was [smiley=bullcrap.gif]
I don't know if the proportion of good adventure games being made (compared to no-good ones) has changed over the years. But the number has certainly decreased. And even adventures that are pretty good, like Still Life, often seem unfinished. (well it was unfinished because they ran out of money and had to wrap it up early).
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 2:36am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (31 OCT 2005 9:12pm)
When exactly is "back then"? According to Adventure-Archiv's statistics, starting with 1993 there were never fewer than 50 adventures published each year. From my own experience I can only say that in the past I had more time to play adventures and less money to buy new ones.
Same here. More time, but less money. It kind of forced you to get totally immersed in the games you did play, exploring every nook and cranny.
Did those 50 AGs per year make it to store shelves? I don't recall seeing that many. Just saw the bigger ones from Sierra and Lucas with a few others (Kyrandia, Legend, etc.)
And no, I definitely don't think adventure games are getting harder. Although it could be that I'm just much better at spotting clues.
Perhaps. I still think that if you took the ease of getting a walkthrough out of the equation then todays AGs might be seen in a different light.
You guys ever play the old Infocom games? I remember spending hours and days playing Moonmist, Deadline, Wishbringer, etc. They were incredibly hard for me (at least back then) and I was totally absorbed in them. Ever go back and look at the walkthroughs for those? They fit on 1 page.
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 2:41am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (31 OCT 2005 9:21pm)
Recently I started replaying GK1 and it was amazing.
What is it that made it better compared to games coming out now? I have yet to play GK1. I struggle with the graphics and have problems getting into it.
And even adventures that are pretty good, like Still Life, often seem unfinished. (well it was unfinished because they ran out of money and had to wrap it up early).
Totally agree here. Still Life had the potential to be an all time great but fell far short.
So what REALLY makes an AG great? We talk about the stories, but many new games have great stories. Is it in the way they are unveiled? More time was taken revealing things? More bits and pieces to explore?
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 2:51am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (1 NOV 2005 2:35am)
It kind of forced you to get totally immersed in the games you did play, exploring every nook and cranny.
Yes. The other thing was lack of Internet access (and for me, no BBS access either until relatively late). That means walkthroughs were hard to get, and I had better chance "working" on a game with my friends.
Did those 50 AGs per year make it to store shelves? I don't recall seeing that many. Just saw the bigger ones from Sierra and Lucas with a few others (Kyrandia, Legend, etc.)
I think they did make it to store shelves. Remember that Sierra alone published probably close to 100 adventures, nearly all of them in the 1989-1999 timeframe. There were many, many other companies (Legend certainly was prolific as well).
Perhaps. I still think that if you took the ease of getting a walkthrough out of the equation then todays AGs might be seen in a different light.
Maybe. I did finish many old games without walkthroughs, and I finished many new games without walkthroughs. It is difficult to generalize.
You guys ever play the old Infocom games? I remember spending hours and days playing Moonmist, Deadline, Wishbringer, etc. They were incredibly hard for me (at least back then) and I was totally absorbed in them. Ever go back and look at the walkthroughs for those? They fit on 1 page.
I never played many Infocom games, but I did play a few old text adventures. The walkthroughs really were short, because all they needed to do was list the required commands Even walkthroughs for old Sierra adventures with text interface were very short. Some of those old text adventures were very tough, others were not that hard.
I forgot my sig.
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 2:59am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (1 NOV 2005 2:41am)
What is it that made it better compared to games coming out now?
Level of detail. There's just SO much more of it than in new games. Most screens have tons of hotspots with detailed object descriptions. There's also plenty of characters to speak to and lots of related dialogue. You really get to learn about Voodoo in the process of playing GK1.
I forgot my sig.
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 3:02am |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | Infocom ruled. I remember the walkthrough for Deadline was one line: Say [the name of the murderer]. Very elegant.
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 4:10am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By MichalN (1 NOV 2005 2:58am)
Level of detail. There's just SO much more of it than in new games. Most screens have tons of hotspots with detailed object descriptions.
Absolutely! For the past ten minutes I've been thinking about Discworld's easter eggs, so I'll take Discworld as an example. You get TWO different descriptions of every single door in the game: one when you go in, one when you go out. How cool is that?
PS: Yeah, Infocom ruled. Magnetic Scrolls deserves to be mentioned too, but all their games were less "deep" and subtle than the best of Infocom.
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 4:55am |
| Deleted User | I remember spending 2 days putting together the stained glass puzzle in Black Dahlia.
I don't mind puzzles being hard if they are fair. But some of the hardest puzzles are only so because they don't let the player know what the goal is. Like those symbols above the doorframes in the Desert village in Reah. Huh?
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 3:52pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | The annoying trend I perceive in adventure games these days is a real lack of effort in crafting puzzles. Very few developers seem to be driven to come up with new, inventive puzzle ideas, so they are just "phoning it in". What I see is a lot of regurgitation and variations on old themes (e.g. sliders, strange alphabets, musical codes, mazes).
In many cases, developers reduce the whole puzzle concept to a simple, repetative exercise in hotspot hunting and dialogue/event cuing. And this can be elevated to any level of difficulty the developer chooses by making hotspots very small and inconspicuous, or dialogue trees horribly complicated.
I think the publishers with dollar signs in their eyes want developers to make easy games, because they're more accessible and marketable. So, I'd have to say puzzles are getting not only easier, but rarer too.
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 5:18pm |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4038
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | I think interesting puzzles have appeared in some of the indie games produced in the past several years. I'm thinking particularly of a favorite of mine, Alida, which had the mechanics of the giant guitar to use for puzzles plus many other goodies. Several of them were very hard but all of them were clued well if the player paid attention.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 1 NOV 2005 at 7:10pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | Yeah. I want to add that I have come across some pretty cool new puzzles recently, but they're mainly in 1st-person puzzle-fest games by Cyan or Detalion or from independant developers like Knut Mueller. By the grace of God, Puzzlecraft is not a lost art.
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| 2 NOV 2005 at 7:03pm |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (31 OCT 2005 8:44pm)
I think it's just you. Play Pandora Directive and Gabriel Knight 3 and then play Nibiru and Still Life and tell me if you think PD and GK3 are easier? Compare Bone with the Monkey Island games. Compare BS3 with BS1 - the dexterity requirements are greater in BS3 but the actual puzzles are much easier. On average I think puzzles in games are easier than they used to be, not harder.
I'm assuming you're talking about games that put the emphasis on story and characters and not those that emphasize puzzles. It would be kind of stupid to set out to make a puzzler and then make the puzzles so easy a 2 year old could do them - unless you're designing the game for 2 year olds. Difficult puzzles aren't so important in games that are dependent on story and characters.
What's most disappointing is that there are so few games with stories and characters as interesting as the Tex or GK games - or as funny as the LucasArts games.
I have all these games you mentioned and played them all without using a walkthrogh.
I did not say the puzzles had to be that simple as you tried to indicate.
The point was trying to make was that don't like spending a couple hours solving a puzzle only to be rewarded by giving me another harder one. By that time I have no idea if the game even had a story.
Puzzles are a very hard thing for game developers, I think because everyone has differnt puzzle solving abilities. They need ways to skip them added or differnt dificulty levels.
Your right, The Tex Murphy games and a lot of others made back then had a lot of these problems solved.
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| 2 NOV 2005 at 7:30pm |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ivinia (1 NOV 2005 2:41am)
What is it that made it better compared to games coming out now? I have yet to play GK1. I struggle with the graphics and have problems getting into it.
I think Gk1 is a good example of what I have been trying to say here about things that have been lost in the newer games.
It has a way of keeping you excited about what's comming up next in the story and what you may get to do. It never leves you stranded not having any idea of what your doing there or why. Everything you have to do is the logical thing to do in that situation so there is never a need for a walkthrough with a game like this. The puzzles they used all make good sence and acually seem to belong in the game right at the point they were found. I feel these things are being lost in newer games. It has to do with a perfect match of puzzles and story. Too many puzzles is just as bad as too few and other things like action or timed scenes can also be overdone very easily. The line between puzzle games like Shivers (a puzzle game with a very short and simple stroy) and games like the Gk series has gotten blured.
What made these old games great was the way they told the story and gave out the hints by adding a little bit to things you examined or invantory you assembled and little things like that. Not many games now except for the indie games even let you examine things on the screen let alone use them to help tell the story or give you an idea on what you need to do next. Thus forcing you to get a walkthrough.
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| 3 NOV 2005 at 2:13pm |
judyannSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 319
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | There was a puzzle in Shivers and another in the 7th Guest that were absolutely the most difficult I solved. But because I knew what to do (not obviously how) and what the goal was, I played each of them literally for weeks.
So I also don't mind puzzles that are hard if they are logical and fair. On the other hand, I just absolutely hate it when I get to a puzzle and have no clue as to how to begin and/or what I am trying to accomplish. Also puzzles that require a lot of trial and error to solve really annoy me.
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| 16 NOV 2005 at 1:18am |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By judyann (3 NOV 2005 2:13pm)
There was a puzzle in Shivers and another in the 7th Guest that were absolutely the most difficult I solved. But because I knew what to do (not obviously how) and what the goal was, I played each of them literally for weeks.
So I also don't mind puzzles that are hard if they are logical and fair. On the other hand, I just absolutely hate it when I get to a puzzle and have no clue as to how to begin and/or what I am trying to accomplish. Also puzzles that require a lot of trial and error to solve really annoy me.
I bet you talking about thee pin ball puzzle and yes I agree with you.
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| 28 NOV 2005 at 3:23am |
shed22Space Cadet
Posts : 106
Joined: 18 SEP 2005
Status : Offline | I'm an old timer and have been playing these puzzle games a long time. The believe that the problem with puzzle games is that you're all correct. There seems to be every type and level of puzzle in every game. Myst IV was a wonderful game, but every gamer puzzle forum has dozens of comments on the chair puzzle and how miserable it was (Even after you knew what to do!). The Secret of the Silver Earring was a cute and simple game, but I needed seventy :-[ attempts to cross the yard and never did figure what I hadn't done the first 69 times. I'm playing ALIDA right now and these are simply difficult puzzles (Or, perhaps, I'm simply stupid. I accept this as a possibility!) :'(
At any rate, the problem sems to be that you, as a consumer, can never be sure what level of difficulty you're getting when you purchase a game. In fairness, I don't know if that's bad, but it do think it's true.
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| 28 NOV 2005 at 4:31am |
| Deleted User | When the puzzles are hard, the complaints come. When the puzzels are easy, the compaints come.
Same as it ever was.
Eh?
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| 28 NOV 2005 at 7:34am |
jalexSchattenjger
Posts : 2503
Joined: 5 MAR 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Not A Speck Of Cereal (28 NOV 2005 4:30am)
When the puzzles are hard, the complaints come. When the puzzels are easy, the compaints come.
Same as it ever was.
Eh?
Your right for sure. I like to skip the puzzles if I can and when I have that option I alway go back and play the puzzles after getting to enjoy the story the first time through.
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| 28 NOV 2005 at 1:29pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | I get impatient with the story and just want the puzzles....
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| 28 NOV 2005 at 4:34pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | Shed, where are these gamer puzzle forums of which you speak?
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| 28 NOV 2005 at 6:01pm |
anthonyJourneyman
Posts : 1270
Joined: 11 JUN 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Not A Speck Of Cereal (28 NOV 2005 4:30am)
Same as it ever was.
And you may ask yourself--Well...how did I get here?
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