| 11 OCT 2005 at 3:55am |
| Deleted User | I believe that this is covered in the DRM. No matter how right it seems, it would be illegal.
Whether any entity would follow suit is another matter.
Speck
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 4:13am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I disagree. I don't think it would be illegal. For a start, DRM, in and of itself does not necessarily confer legality or illegality.
There is criminal illegality and then legal issues that allow civil action. There is nothing criminally illegal about a WinXP patch because there is not an attempt to make illegal copies; it only allows an owner of a legal copy to play the game with a current operating system.
A civil suit could be filed I suppose, but the suing party would have to show that it had suffered a loss by distribution of the patch which it wouldn't be able to show. Then there is the issue of the code. Creating a patch might be possible by inserting a routine or bypassing a routine without any reverse engineering of the original code, but my guess is that adapting a game like Amber would require one heckuva patch so maybe it would require some major fooling with the code. In this case, at the very most, IMO, the suing party might win the case, but would be hard-pressed to show any damages so I doubt that it would sue in the first place.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 5:00am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | There are fan-made patches for other games.
Why would this one be any different?
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 10:55am |
AjSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 278
Joined: 25 JAN 2005
Status : Online | Reverse engineering is not illegal. The US laws are draconian, but what would they do to AMD, Apple, Microsoft, or IBM if they made the common industry practice illegal?
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 1:58pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aj (11 OCT 2005 10:55am)
The US laws are draconian
Huh? :
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 2:09pm |
AjSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 278
Joined: 25 JAN 2005
Status : Online | It means very severe. Google is your friend*.
*unless you live in The People's Republic of China, then Google will screw you.
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 4:58pm |
RobDSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 382
Joined: 30 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (11 OCT 2005 5:00am)
There are fan-made patches for other games.
Why would this one be any different?
Well that's what I thought before the KQ and the other compilations. Vivendi will
most likely make a decent profit from them. Obviously something was done to the games
to allow them to play on XP (i.e., without some kind of emulation). And that's an
attractive feature. So if someone had developed a patch that essentially did the
same thing for one or more or those games in the past I think it's easy to see (now) how it
would have threatened Vivendi.
Most fan-made patches were made to fix bugs for games that to some extent already play
on the intended operating system, aren't they?
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 5:48pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Didn't someone make XP installers for GK1 and 2?
Don't those qualify as patches?
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 5:56pm |
JoYSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 208
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Online | The fact that somebody did it doesn't mean it's legal
Doesn't this have anything to do with using the original code?
Isn't what the ScummVM team did, reengineering without touching (and therefore distributing) the original code.
I believe they have had run ins with the law too, but are still in business...
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 6:09pm |
AjSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 278
Joined: 25 JAN 2005
Status : Online | Not really, how does an installer (software that copies and modifies the registry amongst other things) qualify as a patch?
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 6:10pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | How does it not qualify as a patch?
It fixes something about the game that caused it not to work right.
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 6:27pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aj (11 OCT 2005 2:09pm)
It means very severe. Google is your friend*.
*unless you live in The People's Republic of China, then Google will screw you.
I still don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. :
I know what 'draconian' means, what does that have to do with the current discussion. The general potential copyright issues, if any, exist in the U.K., Europe and other western nations. People are even bringing up Vivendi which is a Paris-based company.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 6:28pm |
RobDSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 382
Joined: 30 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Yeah, I forgot about the GK1 installer. (didn't realize there was one for GK2 )
That's a good point but I'm not so sure it modifies the original code.
Edit: I just checked Inferno's site and I noticed GK1 can be played without the installer.
The reason I'm using Amber as an example is because I believe that there is no amount
of system tweaking that will make the game run on XP. Any 'patch' would necessarily mean
reverse engineering.
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 7:49pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | My memory is not so good, but I remember reading a post someplace where someone with some degree of technical expertise looked into whether he could make an XP patch for Amber - and he determined that it would take an inordinate amount of time unless he had the original source code for the game. Attempts to contact the people who made Amber either met with failure, or they no longer had the original source (I forget which). But apparently reverse engineering from what was in the game would have been too onerous. It uses Director Player 5.0 for Windows, and I think the problem had to do with going through the game code and figuring out each separate instance where a particular type of call was made. (I may be misremembering the details since I'm not a programmer)
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| 11 OCT 2005 at 9:13pm |
RobDSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 382
Joined: 30 NOV 2002
Status : Online | That's right. It would be like the Mt. Everest of AG patches. As far as the time involved,
I don't know. I don't have that much experience. Still, it's interesting to me because it would
be a hecuva learning experience along the way. And I've read these forums long enough
to know that a lot of people would like to see an XP patch (the only aternative being Virtual PC).
On the other hand I don't want to go to jail or pay huge damages either.
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| 12 OCT 2005 at 3:01am |
AjSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 278
Joined: 25 JAN 2005
Status : Online | @Jenny100
How does it not qualify as a patch?
The installer, is separate from the application. The installer, installs the application. The application can function perfectly without the installer, the installer can be patched, some can even be used for multiple games.
@SirDave
I know what 'draconian' means, what does that have to do with the current discussion. The general potential copyright issues, if any, exist in the U.K., Europe and other western nations. People are even bringing up Vivendi which is a Paris-based company.
Which country created DMCA type laws?
Which country pushes these laws onto other nations forcibly through trade agreements?
Tell me when someting isn't true.
What the hell does Vivendi being french have to do with that?
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| 12 OCT 2005 at 3:53am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aj (12 OCT 2005 3:00am)
@SirDave
Which country created DMCA type laws?
Which country pushes these laws onto other nations forcibly through trade agreements?
Tell me when someting isn't true.
What the hell does Vivendi being french have to do with that?
Okay, I'll tell you 'when someting[sic] isn't true': If you're going to single out the U.S. for having draconian laws, it's up to you to support it with some objective facts. DMCA may not be perfect, but that doesn't make it draconian. Something had to be done about piracy and as for the U.S. pushing these laws on other nations- yeah, right- same old paranoid grousing about the big bad U.S. The fact is that all the media publishing companies in the western world, U.S. or otherwise were supporting and pushing for DMCA type laws. Which of course leads back to the subject of Vivendi which was mentioned in another post regarding the cancellation of KQIX. Starting to see the connection yet? All publishing companies are trying to protect their product no matter where they are located.
So, here is the core of the DMCA law plus the parts of it that limit its effect- just what part of it is particularly draconian?
Makes it a crime to circumvent anti-piracy measures built into most commercial software.
Outlaws the manufacture, sale, or distribution of code-cracking devices used to illegally copy software.
Does permit the cracking of copyright protection devices, however, to conduct encryption research, assess product interoperability, and test computer security systems.
Provides exemptions from anti-circumvention provisions for nonprofit libraries, archives, and educational institutions under certain circumstances.
In general, limits Internet service providers from copyright infringement liability for simply transmitting information over the Internet. Service providers, however, are expected to remove material from users' web sites that appears to constitute copyright infringement.
Limits liability of nonprofit institutions of higher education -- when they serve as online service providers and under certain circumstances -- for copyright infringement by faculty members or graduate students.
States explicitly that "[n]othing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use..."
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 12 OCT 2005 at 5:04am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Aj (11 OCT 2005 10:55am)
Reverse engineering is not illegal. The US laws are draconian, but what would they do to AMD, Apple, Microsoft, or IBM if they made the common industry practice illegal?
Sharing reverse engineering technology or techniques that allows others to circumvent copy protection schemes is covered by the DRM, isn't it?
I'm thinking of a recent case where Nikon encrypted a field in the RAW files produced by their cameras. This broke several third-party software programs that read the proprietary but previously un-encrypted format, including one program from Adobe.
Someone posted a crack of that encryption. If any of the commercial applcations used that crack to read the new RAW file format, they would be in violation of the DRM, as I understand it.
Adobe and Nikon came to a recent agreement, in this regard, but that doesn't change the law, nor does it let the other 3rd party applications off the hook.
Not that Nikon is actively pursuing litigation... but my understand is that they can, if they wish.
It sucks. Nikon's decision to encrypt a portion of their format was legal--they own the publishing of those bits (even though those are YOUR images!)--but it was a cold-hearted and crippling decision, IMO. None the less, they had the right, apparently.
Seems to me that modifying the bits of any software, including a game, could potentially fall into this same area, gray as it may be.
No?
ps: apologies if I'm misstating the acronym there.
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| 12 OCT 2005 at 1:21pm |
AjSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 278
Joined: 25 JAN 2005
Status : Online | @SirDave
Okay, I'll tell you 'when someting[sic] isn't true': If you're going to single out the U.S. for having draconian laws, it's up to you to support it with some objective facts. DMCA may not be perfect, but that doesn't make it draconian. Something had to be done about piracy and as for the U.S. pushing these laws on other nations- yeah, right- same old paranoid grousing about the big bad U.S. The fact is that all the media publishing companies in the western world, U.S. or otherwise were supporting and pushing for DMCA type laws. Which of course leads back to the subject of Vivendi which was mentioned in another post regarding the cancellation of KQIX. Starting to see the connection yet? All publishing companies are trying to protect their product no matter where they are located.
Where are your objective facts?
Same old ignorance from an American. So you're denying that the US has been pushing DMCA like law in the UN, and made provisions in trade agreements to bully countries into creating these laws?
Makes it a crime to circumvent anti-piracy measures built into most commercial software.
Outlaws the manufacture, sale, or distribution of code-cracking devices used to illegally copy software.
Does permit the cracking of copyright protection devices, however, to conduct encryption research, assess product interoperability, and test computer security systems.
Provides exemptions from anti-circumvention provisions for nonprofit libraries, archives, and educational institutions under certain circumstances.
In general, limits Internet service providers from copyright infringement liability for simply transmitting information over the Internet. Service providers, however, are expected to remove material from users' web sites that appears to constitute copyright infringement.
Limits liability of nonprofit institutions of higher education -- when they serve as online service providers and under certain circumstances -- for copyright infringement by faculty members or graduate students.
States explicitly that "[n]othing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use..."
Parts draconian in bold.
A crime to circumvent DRM, but the DRM can restrict fair use.
Software used to illegally copy software. Well, lets ban spoons then, I can kill a man with a spoon.
ISPs have limited liability, accept if they want to cache anything.
@Not A Speck Of Cereal
Sharing reverse engineering technology or techniques that allows others to circumvent copy protection schemes is covered by the DRM, isn't it?
Yes. That's not reverse engineering. The application of reverse engineering to circumvent DRM is what is being refered to. Remember the marker pen that could disable a music CD DRM? That's a technique, the law doesn't ban markers.
It's like stabbing and killing someone with a papier mache weapon, they're not going to make papier mache illegal, but obviously the murder is. Copyright infringement is against the law, tools that could possibly be used to do something that is illegal now seem to be against the law too.
This law goes one step further, banning the sharing of infomation. Telling someone how to break into a car is not illegal. Perhaps you want to break into your own car. Banning the transfer of infomation on how to circumvent DRM is draconian and you shouldn't expect it from countries that say they're about freedom.
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| 12 OCT 2005 at 5:35pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Aj (12 OCT 2005 1:20pm)
@SirDave
Where are your objective facts?
I don't think anyone, including myself, are happy with every aspect of DMCA and the implementation of DRM and laws protecting it, but they arose due to draconian piracy and copying (with massive transfer of those copies via peer-peer networks using the very international internet) of copyrighted product such as music, video games and now movies. The great majority of people who are quite happy to pay for legitimate copies of copyrighted works are not really affected to any great extent, but those who took for granted getting something for nothing are.
Other than that, I don't even have to respond other than to quote yourself; your comments of such overpowering substance speak for themselves: :
'Same old ignorance from an American.'
'Parts draconian in bold:
Makes it a crime to circumvent anti-piracy measures built into most commercial software.
Outlaws the manufacture, sale, or distribution of code-cracking devices used to illegally copy software.'
'Software used to illegally copy software. Well, lets ban spoons then, I can kill a man with a spoon.'
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 12 OCT 2005 at 6:11pm |
AjSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 278
Joined: 25 JAN 2005
Status : Online | @SirDave
The great majority of people who are quite happy to pay for legitimate copies of copyrighted works are not really affected to any great extent, but those who took for granted getting something for nothing are.
It's nice to know how little attention you have been paying. How little you understand.
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| 12 OCT 2005 at 8:29pm |
krkdnosePrivate Detective
Posts : 707
Joined: 9 JUN 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aj (12 OCT 2005 6:10pm)
@SirDave
It's nice to know how little attention you have been paying. How little you understand.
You're talking to yourself here, correct?
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| 12 OCT 2005 at 9:07pm |
AjSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 278
Joined: 25 JAN 2005
Status : Online | I know you are, but what am I? Childish, and that's all you seem to do. Talk about substance...
@SirDave
I'm going to quote somethings, and not comment on them, for the hell of it, they speak for themselves:
Something had to be done about piracy...
...and as for the U.S. pushing these laws on other nations- yeah, right- same old paranoid grousing about the big bad U.S.
but they arose due to draconian piracy and copying
The great majority of people who are quite happy to pay for legitimate copies of copyrighted works are not really affected
: I guess that's all you can respond with. All of your statements completely untrue and baseless.
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| 12 OCT 2005 at 11:39pm |
krkdnosePrivate Detective
Posts : 707
Joined: 9 JUN 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aj (12 OCT 2005 9:06pm)
I know you are, but what am I? Childish, and that's all you seem to do. Talk about substance...
Yeah, lets talk about substance. Apparantly you seem to think that your posts are substantiative somehow? All you do is give opinions that for some reason you equate to facts.
The United States is so horrible, its laws are so draconian, and its people are so ignorant....
Wah, wah, wah.
And you expect us to actually have a conversation with you. Give me a break.
Look at how the horrible U.S. has pushed it's draconian ways on yet another country:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12537
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