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| 3 JUL 2005 at 5:45am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Dead ends is one.
Timed sequences
Dragon's Lair sequences
Unforeseeable death
"Puzzles" where you are required to die at least once before you can figure out how to solve the puzzle.
Graphics that are too dark to see.
"Mazes" like the area inside the skull in Beyond Atlantis II.
Anything that gives me motion sickness.
Horrible voice acting.
Inventory items that are hard to pick up even if you're looking right at them and know you have to pick them up (either a pixel hunt situation or the 3D equivalent - aim-the-character-and-click-Enter-and-hope-for-the-best)
I'm sure I could think of others, but that's ten.
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 6:03am |
The_cranky_hermitPrivate Detective
Posts : 547
Joined: 14 MAR 2004
Status : Online | Thanks for the responses, but there are a couple that need revision if you want me to consider using them. Note that if you don't really care on whether they get used or not and just wanted to sound off (which I can perfectly understand), you don't need to read any further.
"Mazes" like the area inside the skull in Beyond Atlantis II.
Can you elaborate on that? I've never played Beyond Atlantis II. What makes that maze less tolerable than any given maze?
Graphics that are too dark to see.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Do you mean games where the entire game is dark? Specific areas that are too dark? Specific areas where your inability to see is intentional (such as Maniac Mansion)?
Anything that gives me motion sickness.
Way too subjective. Can you pin down what gives you motion sickness? Motion sickness really isn't a concept, it's the result of a concept.
Horrible voice acting.
A bit too subjective, though it could be documented anyway if the opinions on any given game's voice acting are mostly in agreement (and they usually are).
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 6:28am |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
Okay, here are eight more really bad ideas to go with deadends and player death in AGs.
1. First I would add pixel hunting especially in dark areas with grainy, old, low-res graphics.
2. Second I would also add timed jumping puzzles, as opposed to all timed sequences.
3. Plus, wildly eratic, third person camera swings, particularly during anything close to an action sequence.
4. And a close cousin to the above, bad third person camera angles that block your view of vital elements.
5. Another would be meaningless, meandering mazes that serve no purpose other than as a cheap filler for lazy designers who can't think of anything more original.
6. Doors that go nowhere.
7. Stingy save game slots for no good reason.
8. Poorly written, incomplete game manuals.
Cheers, Terry
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 6:38am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By The_cranky_hermit (3 JUL 2005 6:03am)
"Mazes" like the area inside the skull in Beyond Atlantis II.
Can you elaborate on that? I've never played Beyond Atlantis II. What makes that maze less tolerable than any given maze?
It isn't really a maze you can solve logically. You can't tell what direction you're heading. Much of it looks exactly the same from one click point to the next. You pretty much have to just keep clicking at random until you somehow find your way out of it. Since the game has the node-and-panning interface, it may be that it sometimes rotates you when you click to throw you off even further. It's impossible to map. I don't know of anyone who didn't find their way out eventually, but it was like a crap shoot every time you clicked - maybe the game would decide to let you out and maybe it wouldn't. And you had to keep coming back to this horrible "not-really-a-maze" every time you did something substantial in one of the worlds, and it wasn't any faster on any of the subsequent visits.
Graphics that are too dark to see.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Do you mean games where the entire game is dark? Specific areas that are too dark? Specific areas where your inability to see is intentional (such as Maniac Mansion)?
Usually the whole game is too dark - dark enough that it's too dark for some people to see necessary inventory items, even with their monitor and video card brightness cranked up. This may be a gamma problem as much as a darkness problem. It isn't just horror games that do it. I remember Omega Stone had the problem and so many people complained that they brightened it up with the patch. I think this sometimes happen when they create the graphics for a PC version on a Mac.
Anything that gives me motion sickness.
Way too subjective. Can you pin down what gives you motion sickness? Motion sickness really isn't a concept, it's the result of a concept.
How about "choosing an interface that tends to give people motion sickness" then - an interface without options to control the speed of your movement or your panning speed - or one where, as you move along, objects move by in an unnatural manner. You know how in real life when you're looking out a car window, or just walking along on foot, you appear to be moving past objects in the foreground faster than objects in the distance. If this effect isn't duplicated properly in a game with 3D movement, it can mess with your equilibrium and cause motion sickness.
Horrible voice acting.
A bit too subjective, though it could be documented anyway if the opinions on any given game's voice acting are mostly in agreement (and they usually are).
I'm pretty tolerant of voice acting. But some games, like Watchmaker and Legacy, have some really atrocious voice acting and I think they'd have been better off using text - or possibly English text with the original language spoken (assuming the game wasn't made in English and the voice acting was good in the original language).
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 7:17am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16540
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Conversation trees that take forever to get to the spot. I hate my character sounding like an idiot.
Conversation branches that disappear if you choose the wrong option.
Women on whom the most detailed drawing is the boobs. And really Barbie Doll figures generally.
People who constantly fidget as they talk to you - very distracting.
Dying.
Timed puzzles that involve running between too spots, facing the right way and pressing things in a set order.
Slow loading screens..... ho hum.....zzzzzzZZZZZZ
Far too many inventory items (see Return to Mysterious Island).
Making incredible gadgets from shells and twigs and a bit of grass....???
Tantalising views of distant places that you want to explore but never get to.
Locked doors.
Wide swinging camera movements.
Having to collect inventory items for which no obvious purpose has been revealed yet. I mean, why would you collect these herbs if there wasn't a hot spot there?
I'm beginning to wonder why I play these games.
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 8:09am |
| Deleted User | Boy, you guys already hit on most sore spots for me, so I'll be brief;
- Dialogs that you can't skip, yes indeed...
- Especially long dialogs that you've been through already and even if you can skip through them, it takes forever (Discworld Noir)
- Things that don't happen until you do something nonsensical. For instance, "I've done everything, now what?" Answer: "Go visit the hospital to see the patient sleeping, come back to the lab and check your voice mail to see nothing wating, walk out of that lab and then all hell breaks loose". Um, okay.
- Math puzzles ;^)
- Non-obvious areas to move too off screen, the scrolling landscape (JttCotE, Syberia).
- Yes, timed anything.
- Yes, having to die for any reason at all.
Eh?
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 9:06am |
Steve IncePrivate Detective
Posts : 571
Joined: 7 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | This is an interesting thread. However, I find that the principles behind the following two statements to be at odds with one another.
Originally Posted By The_cranky_hermit (3 JUL 2005 5:25am)
Unicursors (a cursor interface where one click/icon does everything except for using inventory items)
Being forced to open your inventory to make obvious inventory actions, mainly using keys on doors (the hand icon should suffice if you possess the right key).
The first effectively says that you don't want the game helping you out by making the interface simple, yet in the second you want the game to help you out.
I agree entirely with the first of those two points because I like having to make choices through the interface and like having control over what happens, which means that I like to choose the key from the inventory to open the door, rather than have the game do it for me automatically. What do others feel about this?
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 9:42am |
Lucien21Guild Master
Posts : 4876
Joined: 9 JUL 2003
Location: 0
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Steve Ince (3 JUL 2005 9:06am)
This is an interesting thread. However, I find that the principles behind the following two statements to be at odds with one another.
The first effectively says that you don't want the game helping you out by making the interface simple, yet in the second you want the game to help you out.
I agree entirely with the first of those two points because I like having to make choices through the interface and like having control over what happens, which means that I like to choose the key from the inventory to open the door, rather than have the game do it for me automatically. What do others feel about this?
I agree. I'd much rather choose the option than the one click fits all approach.
Dear Diary, My teenage angst bullsh*t now has a bodycount.
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 12:44pm |
papillonSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 340
Joined: 3 JUL 2003
Status : Online | I'm an old Sierra Quester, and I *like* death in games, provided that death itself is interesting in some way, you had fair warning to expect that death was possible, and the death is not unreasonably inconvenient. (Any death that occurs immediately or very shortly after a long, unskippable cutscene is unreasonable.)
That said...
7. Stingy save game slots for no good reason.
How is there EVER a good reason to limit save slots on a PC game? I don't care if you've come up with some bizarre plot twist involving my PC having only five "souls" so I can only have five save slots. It's dumb and it's not helping my fun in any way.
The only possible exception would be games that for design reasons have NO save slots (Missing).
I come from the "save early, save often" school of gaming. Making my saved games difficult annoys me.
But my number one annoyance in AGing is thankfully more rare with current technology...
Limited First Person Perspective.
You "see" in first person, but you cannot turn dynamically at all. You see one flat screen in front of you. Activating a turn command/hotspot will cause this screen to switch to another view of the same room.
This drives me bonkers. I GET LOST. In a single room. I lose track of which way I came in and how to turn to get back to the way I was going. Especially since some of these games get clever and have more than four views within a single room. And since they're not action games, they DON'T bother to display a convenient minimap that shows where I am and what way I'm facing.
I can't complete games like that. I just start walking into the walls in frustration.
I think this is pretty rare now, though, except in the occasional Flash adventure or something.
(Even in third person, with full rotating 3d and a minimap, I still get lost sometimes. But I can struggle through that, at least.)
[url=http://whineaboutgames.blogspot.com]I Whine About Games[/url]&&&&[url=http://www.hanakogames.com]Anime Games[/url]
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 1:13pm |
kuddlesPrivate Detective
Posts : 702
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | Is "dead ends" really a concept? Sometimes it is probably a mistake, but times where it is clear and obvious that the developers knew about it piss me off to no end.
[size=10][b]Games:[/b] Europa Universalis III&&[b]Music:[/b] [i]Awoo[/i] - Hidden Cameras&&[b]Series:[/b] Dexter (S1)&&[b]Movies:[/b] The Prestige (8/10) Little Miss Sunshine (5/10)&&[/size]
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 1:36pm |
judyannSorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 319
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | 1. Timed Sequences that require more agility than logic.
2. Mazes that use only a few different screens multiple times.
3. ialogue trees where you have to pick just the right topic and can't go back.
4. Pixel hunting.
5. Lengthy conversations
6. Games that are part of a sequel that are not complete in themselves.
7. Having to feel your way around in the dark or find an object you can't see because of dark graphics.
8. Finding an object you will need, but not being able to take it until you find the area in which you will need it - in other words, having to go back and forth needlessly.
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 2:46pm |
ScorpiaIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 46
Joined: 14 OCT 2002
Status : Online | 1. Sound puzzles of any kind.
2. "Follow the leader" puzzles where you have to repeat some sequence (usually sound or lights) exactly to solve the "puzzle".
3. Anything in the nature of: disappearing bridges, moving platforms, leaping wide chasms, and the like.
4. Puzzles that can be solved only by trial and error; there are no hints or clues to the solution, and just logical deduction won't work.
Other members have posted things that really annoy me, so this is a short list. If anything else occurs to me, I'll post again
Best,
- Scorpia
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 5:40pm |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | You seem to have hit the highlights here. I can only add two:
1. Dialogue/cutscenes that have important information, but which are unreplayable.
2. Nodes that have limited movement options for no apparent reason. (I.e., you move forward from node A to node B; at node B you cannot turn around but can only go forward, so you go forward to node C; at node C you are allowed to turn around and go forward twice back to node A.)
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 6:13pm |
The_cranky_hermitPrivate Detective
Posts : 547
Joined: 14 MAR 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Steve Ince (3 JUL 2005 9:06am)
This is an interesting thread. However, I find that the principles behind the following two statements to be at odds with one another.
The first effectively says that you don't want the game helping you out by making the interface simple, yet in the second you want the game to help you out.
Forcing me to dig up the inventory screen to do an obvious thing like using a key on a door does not expand gameplay, it's just busiwork I shouldn't have to do. Having multiple actions that I am allowed to perform on any given object DOES expand on gameplay. It's not a contradiction.
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 6:15pm |
The_cranky_hermitPrivate Detective
Posts : 547
Joined: 14 MAR 2004
Status : Online | And everyone, if someone else already named a concept you hate, PLEASE include it in your list too. I can't determine the 10 most hated concepts if everyone only lists "new" things!
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 6:51pm |
AndromusGuild Master
Posts : 5538
Joined: 6 NOV 2002
Status : Offline | Unicursors.
Most pixel hunting.
Mazes, when they're bland or unoriginal, obviously padding out a game.
Badly designed or implemented action sequences.
Unskippable automatic sequences anywhere in a game -- particularly, double clicking on an exit should let you leave the screen.
Unoriginal locations, naturally Egypt or Atlantis.
(Designers -- it's a big old world we live in, go somewhere else!)
Not being able to interact with objects, no examination allowed.
Lack of reasonable feedback when trying to solve a puzzle.
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 8:16pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By The_cranky_hermit (3 JUL 2005 6:13pm)
Forcing me to dig up the inventory screen to do an obvious thing like using a key on a door does not expand gameplay, it's just busiwork I shouldn't have to do. Having multiple actions that I am allowed to perform on any given object DOES expand on gameplay. It's not a contradiction.
Can you think of an example besides the key in the door? If I have 6 keys in my inventory I'd just as soon not have to try each one on every locked door I find. But I think most inventory puzzles should not be automatic.
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 8:31pm |
The_cranky_hermitPrivate Detective
Posts : 547
Joined: 14 MAR 2004
Status : Online | But I think most inventory puzzles should not be automatic.
I am in no way suggesting they should. I'm just saying truly obvious ones like using the right key on the locked door should be automatic.
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 8:35pm |
jamarchandSchattenjger
Posts : 1665
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | 01 - Bad Graphics (I specially, hate that!);
02 - Complex and arbitrary mazes;
03 - Easy puzzles;
04 - Impossible and non-sense puzzles;
05 - Try-error riddles;
06 - Action elements;
07 - 3D realtime - when characters often trespass walls and furniture;
08 - Collected objects that aren't usefull in the game - Red herrings at the inventory;
09 - Bad told plots;
10 - Abuse of fancy story-drive;
11 - Heroes and heroines;
12 - Excess of keybord control;
13 - Few hotspots;
14 - Poor voice-acting;
15 - Cartoons ( I hate 'em ! )
16 - Earning points, countdowns, levels and chapters dividing the game;
17 - All the other things I eventually forgot at this moment ;
 &&&&[move]Actually playing SHIVERS and Rhem 2[/move]&&
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 8:38pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By The_cranky_hermit (3 JUL 2005 8:31pm)
But I think most inventory puzzles should not be automatic.
I am in no way suggesting they should. I'm just saying truly obvious ones like using the right key on the locked door should be automatic.
I wasn't saying you were. I'm just trying to determine where you'd draw the line.
By the way, is a "unicursor" the same thing as a cursor that isn't context sensitive?
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| 3 JUL 2005 at 8:40pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jamarchand (3 JUL 2005 8:35pm)
10 - Abuse of fancy story-drive;
I have no idea what that means
11 - Heroes and heroines;
What's the alternative?
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| 4 JUL 2005 at 12:10am |
jamarchandSchattenjger
Posts : 1665
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (3 JUL 2005 8:39pm)
1) I have no idea what that means
2) What's the alternative?
1) Yes, you have - Atlantis 2, Arthur's Knight are some few exemples of the fancy abuse.
2) The alternative?...Common people and not stereotyped protagonists, as busty models and ultra-athletical men.
No...none alternative is required, but only the racional path.
I like to watch a good story, and don't feel me immerse in another time-space-dimension, inside another paralell universe.
Fantasy have the right DOSAGE. If that dosage trespass a certain limit, it can easilly transform in a bufoonery itself.
Is like a remedy. Rights and convenients dosages can cure the pacient..but the overdose can be fatal.
&&&&[move]Actually playing SHIVERS and Rhem 2[/move]&&
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| 4 JUL 2005 at 12:49am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4941
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By jamarchand (4 JUL 2005 12:10am)
1) Yes, you have - Atlantis 2, Arthur's Knight are some few exemples of the fancy abuse.
You do a great job with English jamarchand, but I think you mean fantasy don't you? Fantasy has to do with make-believe and one's imagination; fancy has various meanings none of which likely refer to adventure games.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 4 JUL 2005 at 1:14am |
BastichPrivate Detective
Posts : 622
Joined: 7 APR 2004
Status : Offline | 1. Low interactivity
2. Pixel hunting
3. Dialogues/cutscenes that can't be skipped
4. Animations that can't be skipped or that are excessive. (i.e. having to watch my character navigate every single screen)
5. NEVER make me repeat something I have already done. (If I have already inputted the code into a door lock for instance, I should never have to do so again. The door should just open automatically from then on)
6. Dead ends.
7. Cell Phones. They're annoying enough in real life. Let's leave them there.
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