| 11 JUN 2005 at 9:11pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
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Originally Posted By Agustin (11 JUN 2005 1:42am)
Planescape: Torment. In fact, combat usually got in the way only to 'spice' some situations. Other than that, one of the best stories and definitely THE best dialogues in any game in any genre. Contrary to what's happening in adventures, Torment is a game that transcended the RPG genre by leaving aside combat, something that was integral to RPG's. Too bad it was made in 2D and nobody cares about it anymore :
As mentioned on these forums many times in other threads, Planescape was my favorite one-off, SP-only CRPG ever and it used the best 2D engine ever created for D& rules (BioWare's Infinity Engine). Fallout 1 & 2 were even more fun and much more replayable - using an even older 2D engine but with the SPECIAL rules in a much larger game world and a cool sci-fi theme.
That's why I felt so sad when Interplay shut down Black Isle Studios. But fortunately, BioWare and now Bethesda Softworks will carry on that wonderful tradition in several new series of 3D RPGs (like Neverwinter Nights, StarWars: KOTOR and Jade Empire) and more extensions to two of the all-time best CRPG classics (The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and Fallout 3).
The point here is that even the very best RPG studios in the world are now moving to full 3D because 1. it sells and 2. it allows for a great deal more creative freedom and the possibility of whole new concepts to take shape.
So as much as I adored past 2D RPGs, I have every reason to be very excited about the future of that genre. If AGs can make the same transition successfully, we will see them survive too.
Cheers, Terry
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| 11 JUN 2005 at 9:31pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
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Originally Posted By SirDave (11 JUN 2005 8:24pm)
What it really comes down to I guess is that the simplicity of 2D in AGs is a benefit for people like us. I really don't want the interface to intefere with the experience. With 3D, as you say, you'd have to check things out from all sorts of angles. But what I've really appreciated about the 2D games is the ability to just sit there and navigate all over the place with one hand on the mouse. True 3D is usually going to require one hand on the mouse and one hand on the keyboard. I'll do that with Far Cry or Medal of Honor, but I'd prefer not to do it with AGs!
I like that same simplicity too Dave and have played a very large number of really great 2D games in many genres. No doubt 2D (actually static 2D backgrounds with newer 3D character models and effects) will be around for quite a while longer simply because many people do not yet have adequate system specs to run the latest 3D engines and yes, that older format still does work just fine.
But what I have tried to present in this thread is a set of reasons why 3D "could" also be applied to the same sub-genre effectively (IF done properly) for future titles. I also wanted to open the discussion up to the possibility of new kinds of AGs that more fully employ 3D with new types of puzzles not yet even imagined. That is the area I am most interested in as a true AG fan who very much wants the genre to thrive again.
Lastly, there is the very serious issue of financial survival in today's fast paced, highly competitive marketplace and giving AG designers a fair chance to make an admittedly rough transition from classic 2D ( 2D + 3D) to full 3D so they have a better chance of appealing to tomorrow's publishers / investors and game consumers - who indeed will have much better average system specs five years down the road.
Are these unreasonable suggestions? I think not.
Cheers, Terry
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| 11 JUN 2005 at 9:39pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (11 JUN 2005 9:30pm)
.
Lastly, there is the very serious issue of financial survival in today's fast paced, highly competitive marketplace and giving AG designers a fair chance to make an admittedly rough transition from classic 2D ( 2D + 3D) to full 3D so they have a better chance of appealing to tomorrow's publishers / investors and game consumers - who indeed will have much better average system specs five years down the road.
Are these unreasonable suggestions? I think not.
No they're not, but I have a feeling that, at this point in time, the whole subject may be moot. I think we may be at the point where the cost of implementing 3D is beyond the resources of current and future AG developers. Other than Cyan Worlds, I can't think of anyone who has the capability, financial and otherwise, to do what you suggest.
(Well, Detalion managed to come up with a fairly good 3D engine, but that may have been an aberration.)
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 11 JUN 2005 at 9:54pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
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Originally Posted By SirDave (11 JUN 2005 9:39pm)
No they're not, but I have a feeling that, at this point in time, the whole subject may be moot. I think we may be at the point where the cost of implementing 3D is beyond the resources of current and future AG developers. Other than Cyan Worlds, I can't think of anyone who has the capability, financial and otherwise, to do what you suggest.
(Well, Detalion managed to come up with a fairly good 3D engine, but that may have been an aberration.)
Well, Sierra at least gave it a decent shot in GK3 as did LucasArts with MI4 and Revolution with BS3, plus Funcom is going that way with Dreamfall. So there are some others studios around with good financial support and enough risk-taking ability to try. Ubisoft and The Adventure Company will probably finance some more 3D games that technically fall into the AG category too.
But this also goes back to my earlier statement that if Myst V succeeds as a full 3D AG, it could go a very long ways toward convincing both publishers / investors and players to give it a fair chance in future titles.
In a different direction, full 3D action-adventures are selling very well on all systems as are full 3D RPGs. So there is a lot of overall activity with games that include at least some AG elements. It may be though that there is no solution for satisfying traditional 2D AG fans and publishers / investors who want to push full 3D. If not, then this genre is in for an even rougher time.
Cheers, Terry
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| 11 JUN 2005 at 9:56pm |
EvaGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (11 JUN 2005 9:54pm)
.
Well, Sierra at least gave it a decent shot in GK3
Much as I loved that game, I think it'd have looked much, much better in 2D and probably been less confusing to control.
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| 11 JUN 2005 at 10:17pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
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I actually loved the optional free roaming first person camera in GK3 and had no problems with the default third person controls. I did however have a problem at first in one tiny area where you had to dolly down to floor level and look under a desk.
But the 3D technology and average system specs back in 1998 were a far cry from what's already around today. And, five years down the road, things will be even better in terms of affordable systems with really good 3D cards and even more efficient 3D engines with much cleaner graphics. They will also have even better sound, physics and AI which could have an equally positive impact on games.
That assumes of course that some publishers / investors actually support future AGs of any kind and that designers take full advantage of the various technologies to create quality titles with smooth controls, etc. Time will tell but there is no technical reason why it cannot happen.
Cheers, Terry
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| 11 JUN 2005 at 11:41pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (11 JUN 2005 9:54pm)
.
Well, Sierra at least gave it a decent shot in GK3 as did LucasArts with MI4 and Revolution with BS3, plus Funcom is going that way with Dreamfall.
I'm too lazy to go and check right now, but if memory serves GK3 & MI4 were more like 2D+ ie. more like Myst Exile. Possibly a little more multi-dimensional than Myst Exile, but not anything like the 3D action games. Also, and again, to the best of my recollection, I was able to get around quite easily with the mouse only.
If that's the 3D you're talking about, I can't say I'd have that big a problem with it. One thing is sure: the controls of GK3 & MI4 were a damn-site better than URU!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 12:05am |
Jenny100Guild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By nytimesguy (11 JUN 2005 6:10pm)
In terms of 3D working better for puzzles than 2D, I think in some cases yes. For example, some of the puzzles in Sentinel, like the one with all the web thingies that made sound and the big towers and all that. You could do that puzzle as a basic Myst slideshow and it would work, but for me it seems more satisfactory when you have to look around you that you actually look around.
I had big problems with that puzzle in Sentinel. I kept losing track of where I was, what windmill I was at, what island I was on and so forth. Despite being 3D, I found myself going back over bridges I'd just crossed. I'd look around trying to figure out which island I was on by how many towers and other structures it had and by the time I'd figured that out, I'd lost track of which direction I came in from. It was a confusing area. I don't think being 2D would have helped, but being 3D did not help me. I needed more differentiation between the islands to keep track of where I was.
I feel for puzzles that require you to explore and learn your environment that it is nice to do just that. I remember being really aggravated at times in Riven because I couldn't quite look at something that was just to the edge of the screen,
I remember having that problem in BS3. I was supposed to see a window exit that only had a little bit of the window showing at the edge of the screen. Being able to pan would have helped there - so even a 2D node-based interface that allowed panning would have been superior to what we had.
or times where I felt some disorientation because I wasn't quite clear when I turned how much of a turn I was making.
I have that problem more in node-and-panning games than in "snapshot" games like Riven. The worst ones are those that rotate you when you click forward. I seem to remember Beyond Atlantis did that - especially bad with the star hunt in the Xibalba area.
And for me that is a major issue.
If 3D movement keeps you from getting disoriented, I can see why it would be.
There are a lot of problems with 3D node-based games precisely because they are not in 3D.
For example, a lever or button isn't differentiated enough from its surroundings in the one view you have of it. But if you approach the same area and look around in 3D you are more likely to notice that lever or button because you have more angles to see it from.
I tend not to be looking for levers when I'm moving around in 3D. Not having distinct "stopping places" means there's so much more to explore and look at. So I spend less time wherever I stop because there are so many more potential stopping places and angles to look from. When you're restricted to nodes, there are fewer places to look for a movable lever than in a 3D game where you can move anywhere. So I think it balances out. I think there's just no replacement for making a necessary object prominent and easy to spot, no matter what type of movement system you're using. A lot of 3D games do something to make things easier to find - like making them highlight or twinkle when you get close enough to them or have an icon appear on screen that indicates you can interact with something that's within range. It's not like being in 3D automatically makes things that much easier to see.
It also creates new ways to do certain puzzles. For example, in 2D if you have a puzzle that causes you to have to look at all sides of a post you make the post turn or you make people click around it (which is an awkward approach) but in 3D looking at all sides of something is very natural.
Not sure I understand. You still have to move around the post or make it turn to see all sides of it - unless you have a mirror. How awkward it is depends on how the interface is designed. I think rotating the post would be equally easy in either 2D or 3D. Running around it might seem easier in 3D at first glance, but a couple of clicks - one to move to the side of the post, the other to face the post, would be just as fast - and less likely to provoke motion sickness.
(I don't know if anyone has said the same thing here yet, I've just kind of sampled this thread. It's a week bit long.)
I think you're the first one who made a serious attempt - at least in this thread. And I thank you for it.
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 12:25am |
colpetSchattenjger
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Status : Offline | With 3D, as you say, you'd have to check things out from all sorts of angles. But what I've really appreciated about the 2D games is the ability to just sit there and navigate all over the place with one hand on the mouse. True 3D is usually going to require one hand on the mouse and one hand on the keyboard. I'll do that with Far Cry or Medal of Honor, but I'd prefer not to do it with AGs!
And therein lies my biggest beef about 3D - keyboard controls. Why must mouse control and 3D be mutually exclusive?
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 12:37am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By colpet (12 JUN 2005 12:25am)
And therein lies my biggest beef about 3D - keyboard controls. Why must mouse control and 3D be mutually exclusive?
I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive. At least not in the 1st-person games you love. Navigation in Schizm II and Sentinel is mouse-driven.
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 12:55am |
colpetSchattenjger
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Status : Offline | I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive. At least not in the 1st-person games you love. Navigation in Schizm II and Sentinel is mouse-driven.
I know there are some games that can have both - GK3 and the Tex Murphy ones as well.
Then why will Myst V need a keyboard to manouver in 3D? Is it the developer's choice? In Uru you could play with the mouse alone (even though I did use the space bar for jumping).
I guess I'm confused as to whether 3D usually means there is some sort of keyboard navigation because of the limitations of the mouse, or is it a design thing?
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 1:06am |
Orange_BratIntergalactic Janitor
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Status : Online | It can be either/or. I've played all kinds of 3D games and used all kinds of keyboard only, mouse only, and combo setups. There's no excuse for any PC game to not allow the player to have full control over how they want to play the game. If it is limited, that is sometimes a sure sign of a game being developed for both the PC and the console, but sometimes that isn't the reason.
[url=http://www.thedisenfranchised.com/]The Disenfranchised™[/url] - coming later
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 1:21am |
Trep_HomoludensIntergalactic Janitor
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Joined: 15 SEP 2004
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ksandra (11 JUN 2005 11:41am)
That is complete and utter bullsh*t. Did you read the parts earlier in the thread where I said that I had played many 3D adventures, and thought some of them were pretty good? Or the part where I said that the very latest 3D games (Oblivion, etc.) are beginning to catch up with 2D in terms of graphical quality, and I wouldn't mind so much if adventures were made with these engines? Clearly not. I agree with Betje; all you appear to be interested in is looking for confirmation of your own prejudices.
I don't look, dear. I observe.
The reason I prefer 2D in AGs is not because I've only ever played 2D adventures. It's precisely because I've played both 2D and 3D adventures, and hence come to the conclusion that 2D works better in this particular genre. This is a personal opinion; the fact that you disagree with it does not automatically make it 'wrong'.
And I disagree. 3D can work in any kind of game. But where did I ever say it was wrong?
Neither am I unwilling to look for new experiences. I'll read reviews and try demos for Dreamfall and all the other upcoming 3D adventures, just as I would with any other AG, and if I think they sound good I will buy them. Maybe I'll even find one that convinces me 3D really does have something to offer the genre; I doubt it, but I'm nevertheless open to the possibility.
Oh no. Look instead for a game you like, and if it's happens to be in 3D, then it happens to be in 3D. But please don't let your biases and nostalgia, if you have them, cloud your sense of curiosity.
Oh, thanks a lot. So I get the old games and the little indie and amateur adventures, and you get all the big-budget new releases - that's a real comfort. This is precisely the reason why I'm worried about the increasing trend towards 3D, and your coming here and rubbing it in does not do anything to reassure me.
Well, you're actually kinda helping with the rubbing in. But what's wrong with playing the old games, the free amateur games, and the small indie dev titles? Isn't that what you want?
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 1:25am |
Jenny100Guild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By colpet (12 JUN 2005 12:55am)
Then why will Myst V need a keyboard to manouver in 3D?
Ummm... It won't.
Cyan is developing an approximation of point-and-click for Myst V.
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 1:34am |
Trep_HomoludensIntergalactic Janitor
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Status : Online | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (11 JUN 2005 9:30pm)
.
Lastly, there is the very serious issue of financial survival in today's fast paced, highly competitive marketplace and giving AG designers a fair chance to make an admittedly rough transition from classic 2D ( 2D + 3D) to full 3D so they have a better chance of appealing to tomorrow's publishers / investors and game consumers - who indeed will have much better average system specs five years down the road.
Are these unreasonable suggestions? I think not.
This is EXACTLY partly what I've been saying. Do you honestly think that big publishers would want to fund a game that, no matter how brilliant the idea sounds, will be made in a specific format that will NOT sell a great number of copies? You can b*tch and whine all you want, but companies like Cyan can only listen to you for so long. After all, they've got bills to pay, employees to take care of. And as some here have already pointed out, games can still be made to accommadate a wide variety of tastes. Get real.
And that's why I keep saying that, for those of you who prefer more conventional things like 2D and point-&-click, why are you complaining? There are HUGE AMOUNTS of existing and upcoming adventure titles doing that, some good, others not so.
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 1:35am |
Trep_HomoludensIntergalactic Janitor
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Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (12 JUN 2005 1:25am)
Ummm... It won't.
Cyan is developing an approximation of point-and-click for Myst V.
Yes, and I think it's wonderful!! You will able to point-&-click, and I will able to remap the keys so I can steer around the way I did in Half-Life 2. However we want to do it. That's thoughtful of Cyan.
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 1:41am |
colpetSchattenjger
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Status : Offline | And that's why I keep saying that, for those of you who prefer more conventional things like 2D and point-&-click, why are you complaining? There are HUGE AMOUNTS of existing and upcoming adventure titles doing that, some good, others not so.
Well, this thread is about Myst V being different than the rest of the Myst games which most of us have played and loved.
Ummm... It won't.
Cyan is developing an approximation of point-and-click for Myst V.
Sorry, Jenny. I am confused I guess by the thread at GB that mentioned mapping keys for 3D navigation.
Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 1:53am |
Trep_HomoludensIntergalactic Janitor
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Status : Online | Originally Posted By colpet (12 JUN 2005 1:41am)
Well, this thread is about Myst V being different than the rest of the Myst games which most of us have played and loved.
Yes, quite true. But that's just unfortunate that some of the things you loved about it are no longer going to be there. In the end, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE GAME IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. No one is forcing us to buy it. Accept it, deal with it.
And there are other games similar to Myst, to what we prefer, that we can play.
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 1:55am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (11 JUN 2005 8:48pm)
Another thoroughly unimaginative response that completely overlooks the fact the the example given was a puzzle created by a rank amateur using free editing tools in a limited, pre-eset RPG format. It also conveniently overlooks the many other benefits that 3D and other advanced technologies could lend to the AG genre in the future - as mentioned above numerous times now.
A professional AG designer with custom tools and an equally talented programmer could create anything his imagination could come up with. And that is the point. People fighting 3D for all the wrong reasons lack creative imagination and vision for future possibilities that require thinking well beyond old conventions.
If you are incapable of doing so, at least don't embarrass yourself with feeble attempts to belittle people who can.
Hi Terry,
Surely you have better things to do than attack people for one-off, tongue-in-cheek responses? It's hard to accept you as an arbiter of "creative imagination and vision" if you respond to that sort of tossed-off comment with a rather insulting three-paragraph rant.
When Dreamfall or Indigo Prophecy come out, feel free to change my mind with accounts of new, fascinating gameplay experiences which could never, ever have been accomplished in 2D. Until then, however, permit me a healthy level of skepticism. You could also take my comments with a grain of salt, by the way. Or seven.
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 1:57am |
SirDaveGuild Master
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Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Trep_Homoludens (12 JUN 2005 1:33am)
This is EXACTLY partly what I've been saying.
Okay, fessup- is it 'exactly' or 'partly'?
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 2:14am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By colpet (12 JUN 2005 1:41am)
Sorry, Jenny. I am confused I guess by the thread at GB that mentioned mapping keys for 3D navigation.
Mappable keys is something that would be nice to be able to do, for those who want to use keyboard and have a preference for particular key mappings. But I don't know if Myst V will allow that option. What they are trying to do is make a mouse interface that is very similar to point-and-click.
There are some nice in-game trailers that show how the point-and-click-like movement for mouse will look available ***here***.
But they are rather large downloads if you're on dialup.
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 2:30am |
Trep_HomoludensIntergalactic Janitor
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Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (12 JUN 2005 1:57am)
Okay, fessup- is it 'exactly' or 'partly'?
[IMG]http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/edoom/heh_heh.gif[/IMG] Erm, all the above?
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 2:33am |
Trep_HomoludensIntergalactic Janitor
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Status : Online | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (12 JUN 2005 2:14am)
Mappable keys is something that would be nice to be able to do, for those who want to use keyboard and have a preference for particular key mappings. But I don't know if Myst V will allow that option. What they are trying to do is make a mouse interface that is very similar to point-and-click.
We've also added a new user-interface model to our realtime 3D to allow a point-and-click experience similar to previous Myst games. And for the first time in a Myst game we've also provided a very gamer-friendly FPS interface for those who want full control.
Gamesplanet interview with Rand Miller, 4/21/05
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| 12 JUN 2005 at 2:34am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Trep_Homoludens (12 JUN 2005 1:21am)
on Today at 7:40am, Ksandra wrote:
That is complete and utter bullsh*t. Did you read the parts earlier in the thread where I said that I had played many 3D adventures, and thought some of them were pretty good? Or the part where I said that the very latest 3D games (Oblivion, etc.) are beginning to catch up with 2D in terms of graphical quality, and I wouldn't mind so much if adventures were made with these engines? Clearly not. I agree with Betje; all you appear to be interested in is looking for confirmation of your own prejudices.
I don't look, dear. I observe.
If only you would observe your own prejudices... But you're trolling, sweetheart. There's no other word for what you're doing. You even planned this trolling move of yours at AG, discussing the "nasty convulsions" of people at JA until the administrator told you to stop it.
But where did I ever say it was wrong?
Trolling, trolling, trolling...
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