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| 28 MAY 2005 at 12:07am |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | /me is trying to fix a instant-reboot-error DirectX causes without any logical reason whatsoever, and on but one computer.
GAAAAAAA!
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| 3 JUN 2005 at 9:18am |
John_QuestDomeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 78
Joined: 21 JAN 2005
Status : Online | Good luck with that!
John&&project-manager & game-designer&&QuestDome Interactive
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| 5 JUN 2005 at 7:45pm |
David_QuestDomeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 24 APR 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (21 MAY 2005 10:55pm)
C'mon...you just wanted to bump this thread back to the top since it's been weeks since anyone replied to it...it's ok...admit it... [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif]
nope, i posted to increase my ranking he he he [smiley=devil_smiley_grintail.gif]
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| 13 JUN 2005 at 1:46pm |
John_QuestDomeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 78
Joined: 21 JAN 2005
Status : Online | So .... as it seems that the discusion disolved ... I'm asking you another question :
Is sound an important part of an adventure? Is it worth to have expensive, but very good soundtracks, SFX and so on .... ????
John&&project-manager & game-designer&&QuestDome Interactive
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| 13 JUN 2005 at 5:07pm |
friarphilSpace Cadet
Posts : 128
Joined: 23 MAR 2004
Status : Online | I personally think that sound, even moreso than graphics, is worth the investment for a game. Unlike graphics, where just because you can do fancy 3D hi-res graphics doesnt mean you should, if you can afford great sound for your game you should definately put it in. Sound and music almost never distracts from the gameplay and usually adds more atmosphere than the graphics do. There really is no reason to use cheap midi sounds if you can afford orchestra music. Just dont let the music exhausts your budget to the point where it compromises the quality of the gameplay!
&&http://www.pinheadgames.com
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| 13 JUN 2005 at 7:09pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | If you throw in voice acting as part of the sound category (which I think you should), then I think it's huge and I agree with Friarphil - even more than graphics. Nothing will sink your game or invite more criticism than bad voice acting. Mediocre graphics tend to slide, but bad voice acting never does.
The biggest offender I've ever seen of this (from a professional game) was in Midnight Nowhere. Your character talks in such a monotone and uninspired voice. He just woke up in a body bag at the morgue for crying out loud! You'd think there'd be some panic and confusion in his voice.
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| 13 JUN 2005 at 8:05pm |
John_QuestDomeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 78
Joined: 21 JAN 2005
Status : Online | For SoulCages, we've talked to Dynamedion SoundDesign to do our sound, inluding voice acting.
www.dynamedion.com ..... just to show you who they are
John&&project-manager & game-designer&&QuestDome Interactive
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| 15 JUN 2005 at 8:18am |
HolmqvistIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 23
Joined: 2 JUN 2004
Status : Online | I don't get why everyones complaining about timed sequences.. I think they make the games come alive, and I don't think you're being consequent either, I never heard anyone complain about the timed sequences in Last Express, and it's full of them. Actually timed sequences is what makes that game so special!
Everyone loves Last Express right?
/ Jacob
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| 15 JUN 2005 at 5:54pm |
ShanyGuild Master
Posts : 3313
Joined: 19 JUN 2003
Status : Online | Actually, I remember reading a post here where someone said they didn't like The Last Express because it was essentialy one big timed-sequence. This is why I'm not very interested in this game despite so many people liking it.
Timed sequences make me nervous. I prefer playing at a slow pace when I have time to think about what I do and to make some mistakes in the process.
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| 15 JUN 2005 at 8:57pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | The Last Express had the feature of a clock on the screen, so if you missed an event that took place at another location, you could wind the clock back and go to it. It wasn't like you would miss something and be stuck.
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| 5 JUL 2005 at 7:54pm |
David_QuestDomeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 51
Joined: 24 APR 2005
Status : Online | man, do i hate adventure games that even go near the definition of time. In my view , a great adv game is completelly timeless one
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| 29 JUL 2005 at 6:26pm |
SyrillIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 78
Joined: 1 OCT 2004
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Holmqvist (15 JUN 2005 8:18am)
I don't get why everyones complaining about timed sequences.. I think they make the games come alive, and I don't think you're being consequent either, I never heard anyone complain about the timed sequences in Last Express, and it's full of them. Actually timed sequences is what makes that game so special!
Everyone loves Last Express right?
/ Jacob
There are people who gave up on Last Express because they couldn't get past a certain sequence. There was supposed to be a cheat to get past this particular sequence, but some people couldn't get it to work. I remember reading the complaints.
Originally Posted By Shany (15 JUN 2005 5:54pm)
Actually, I remember reading a post here where someone said they didn't like The Last Express because it was essentialy one big timed-sequence.
There is actually a minireview where someone says that about it.
(Check number 29 near the bottom of the page)
http://inky.50megs.com/adventure_game_rankings.htm
(Maybe the owner of the site is a JA member?)
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| 17 AUG 2005 at 7:38pm |
viovioIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 3
Joined: 17 AUG 2005
Status : Online | I don't know how many game developers are deeply
interested about players oppinions...
But i'am glad to see you are part of those few who are
really involved; a poll is a good thing, but a marketing
study is better.
Usually, software companies intend to impose a trend
instead surfing the waves. Bosses of those company
regards to adventure players as to nerds who are happy
just to point-and-click and solve stupid puzzles.
If you are looking closely to the most successful releases, not just to the official scores($), but to the most played and discussed, you will notice: yes, an
edge-cutting graphics make the difference. I am not
talking about the millions of colours and rectangulars or
pixel shader. I am talking about the visionary art, about
an integrated graphic flowing from an interesting and
cursive story line. I am talking about the Benoit Sokal
style.
A game graphics must be an extension of the scenario,
a guide throughout any story. A good game take place
in player's mind and the most important computer's interface- in this case, the monitor screen- must connect
with the player's imagination through the most important sense- eyesight. So, the object of graphic is
to stimulate, not to impress.
Unfortunately, the twin sisters, Hollywood and game
developers, had forgotten the basics and saturated
they consumers with hypnotic images. After that, they
inquire: huge budget and so few sales, why?
This is what i think, you like it or not.
I wish you success,
Viovio.
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| 21 FEB 2006 at 4:43pm |
scippie75Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 55
Joined: 21 DEC 2005
Status : Online | I just discovered this topic and would like to say something.
We recently released our game Tears of Betrayal and tried everything we could to get the interest of a publisher. Only one responded with a descent reply: "the graphics aren't good enough, and we don't believe in the text-adventure game genre".
We asked a lot of game-websites and only adventures sites like this one responded in a positive way (we did get critiques, but they were constructive and a lot of these critiques solved a bunch of bugs). But a lot of game-sites were laughing at us: "the graphics suck; I've seen the screenshots and laughed so hard I couldn't continue; The website was too ugly to continue; ...". Almost none of them ever downloaded the demo to even give it a try.
All of this negativism was there because of the adventure game doesn't have edge-cutting graphics!
I was really glad to notice that on JustAdventure (and some other adventure websites), the graphics were less important, and the gameplay was the most important thing in the game which was overall found very satisfying as far as I understood.
So my answer to the question: does an adventure game need edge-cutting graphics?
If you really want to sell it... sadly enough... yes...
So I'm doing the best I can to earn a little money so I can continue creating a superb 3D engine with flashy effects and stuff like that. I hope we can manage .
Visit http://www.tears-of-betrayal.com for a new old-skool adventure game!
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| 3 APR 2006 at 1:58pm |
John_QuestDomeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 78
Joined: 21 JAN 2005
Status : Online | I wish you luck in finding the best way to promote your idea...
John&&project-manager & game-designer&&QuestDome Interactive
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| 3 APR 2006 at 5:15pm |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By scippie75 (21 FEB 2006 4:43pm)
So my answer to the question: does an adventure game need edge-cutting graphics?
If you really want to sell it... sadly enough... yes...
I don't know if edge-cutting graphics are necessary. I would say they must meet a minimal level of quality. arkfall and Scratches were not edge-cutting, but they were above the norm and were comparable to other games available in the market.. It's unfortunate that most indies use Bryce, that rendering software just doesn't hold up for the average developer and the results are nothing short of...well, crappy.
Graphics are also the hardest thing to critique. You can tell someone that a puzzle is too hard or doesn't make sense, the story is not very intriguing, the voice acting is weak, etc. but when it comes to the graphics you really have to tread lightly. Odds are the graphics have been the most time-consuming and grueling part of game development so any critiques in that area are not going to be very welcome - heck, some get downright hostile. Many simply give up and send it out as is, then blame the market for poor sales. In most cases the modeling is perfect, but the texturing and lighting ruins them.
Scippie - In the case of Tears of Betrayal, I can't believe you were laughed at for the graphics. What website was that? The only thing I saw wrong with them is that they lacked color and interest. For example, the seedy bar you go into. You can add more color and interest to it yet still maintain the seedy look. Also, a bit of contrast was needed. Everything had a greyish look.
On the left is a shot from your game, on the right is a quick tweak I did to illustrate what I mean:
[img]http://www.hiddensanctum.com/Misc/TOB example.jpg[/img]
I'm not saying that is how it should look, it's just meant as an example of how you can bring out the scene better. Now you can also make out the piano player much better.
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| 3 APR 2006 at 9:04pm |
scippie75Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 55
Joined: 21 DEC 2005
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Ivinia (3 APR 2006 5:15pm)
Scippie - In the case of Tears of Betrayal, I can't believe you were laughed at for the graphics. What website was that? The only thing I saw wrong with them is that they lacked color and interest.
That's very nice of you to say. But it is true, the game has been laughed at on some forums, mostly younger people who only know of games like Oblivion and Half Life. They joked around telling that the quake 1 engine had better graphics, and they, although none of them are developers, said it is so easy to create great 3D graphics with DirectX and that we're just stupid because we don't see how easy it is to create state of the art 3D graphics with DirectX.
I do know about the graphics being grayish. But up to some level, it was our intent, to make the atmosphere very foggy, very grayish, as you are in a bluesy-kinda town, saterday night blues, even a depressing mood. Maybe that was a mistake. And we do lack effects like shinyness, flares, etc... there simply wasn't enough time for that.
Thanks for your example, you really make a good point there. The pub looks better on your example! (though as you said, not as we intended it).
Visit http://www.tears-of-betrayal.com for a new old-skool adventure game!
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| 4 APR 2006 at 5:32am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | I think that's one of the problems with the web. In most cases, the biggest screamers out there are actually kids who have no clue what they are talking about. Granted, there are always exceptions and some of them are amazingly intelligent. I've always found that the ones who say something is easy are the ones that have never done it.
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| 4 APR 2006 at 10:39am |
John_QuestDomeIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 78
Joined: 21 JAN 2005
Status : Online | Good point there! It is easier to comment someone else's work than to do it yourself ... If only they would know how much time is spent and what devotion a project requires in order to come into the light ... Nobody who hasn't done anything can make jokes or comment someone else's work... For example... I have met people who think everything is so easy ... yet they haven't tried it for themselves ... >
John&&project-manager & game-designer&&QuestDome Interactive
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| 4 APR 2006 at 2:30pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | i wasn't aware of tears of betrayal until i read the posts here... the game looks pretty good and promising! scippie, i don't think you should pay much attention to what generic gamers say on action gaming boards... unless you're going for the big bucks, trying to become the new electronic arts that is! adventure gamers care more for the substance and less for the looks (and your game doesn't even look bad, it just looks worse than half life 2 :)... hope you can find a publisher soon
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 4 APR 2006 at 10:54pm |
R.P._CorseIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 60
Joined: 18 JUN 2005
Status : Online |
It's unfortunate that most indies use Bryce, that rendering software just doesn't hold up for the average developer and the results are nothing short of...well, crappy.
Geez ivinia ,
Its not the software as much as it is the artist,
I use real 3d mostly with some bryce for occational landscapes.
Have you been to the bryce / daz website. Its a pretty good tool in the right hands.
Patients an good textures ( you can import your own ) will go a long way
my friend.
cheers dude
R.P.Corse&&&&[url=http://ancientrein.com]Lunar Deep Special Edition[/url] &&&&&&
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| 5 APR 2006 at 5:36am |
IviniaGuild Master
Posts : 4459
Joined: 7 JUN 2003
Location: US
Status : Offline | Agreed RP. I was a bit quick on that one. I have seen some of the nicer Bryce artwork. Generally though it takes a lot of post production work in other programs. Many of the best ones at that site used a combination of Cinema 4d (modeling), Bryce (environment), and Photoshop. This is pretty normal. Most renderings in any package require some post production work in other programs. The problem is that many indies using Bryce use it for doing everything. Model and texture -> Render scene -> export image as jpg -> put in game. Repeat.
I've used Bryce in the past. It was actually my 2nd 3d program I ever used. The first was Ray Dream Studio. Bryce was more for landscapes and things like that. You couldn't get down into a lot of detail with it and most modeling was done using primitive shapes - stretching and pulling them as well as performing boolean operations. While I have seen some examples of pretty good models being made in it, they all seem to have that toy look to them. Almost like a doll house. It's like people notice Poser figures because they look like plastic. With Bryce it's usually the modeling and textures that give it away.
I should have never used the word 'crappy'. I hate when others use that because it sounds too derogatory. Just through some observations I think many fall into three categories: Lower end handrawn graphics, mid range Bryce, and higher end Strata, 3ds, Maya, etc. We are just talking about the 'look' of a game. The game itself can be fantastic and rank above commercial titles in terms of story and puzzle design, but people do make judgement calls on graphics alone. I tend to buy most of them and look at them from a different perspective, but people like me only make up a small percentage of the customer base.
I always figured that if Bryce modeling looked like toys and Poser figures look like plastic - those weaknesses could be used as strengths. Imagine an AG that takes place in a fantasy setting made up of toys. The player is a figurine in a toy world. Poser figures look like plastic, are stiff, and look like manequins? They're supposed to! They're dolls and action figures. People would probably praise the developer for creating such believable world.
The best advice I can give on a limited budget is to make your game as best you can and work within the limitations of your tools. Take the money you made from it and reinvest it getting better tools to pursue some of the bigger ideas you have. It's very easy to give up by overwhelming yourself with trying to do something that is beyond your means at this point. Many people will tell you, start small and work up to it. That's another reason I'm am doing a few casual games first.
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| 5 APR 2006 at 1:34pm |
R.P._CorseIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 60
Joined: 18 JUN 2005
Status : Online | well your right to a point my friend but
you can model in many softwares and import into bryce,
import textures and so forth. tweak in post prod.
maybe next time ill invest in 3d max
well see
thnx
R.P.Corse&&&&[url=http://ancientrein.com]Lunar Deep Special Edition[/url] &&&&&&
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| 5 APR 2006 at 2:02pm |
scippie75Intergalactic Janitor
Posts : 55
Joined: 21 DEC 2005
Status : Online | Anyway... It's still a fact that no publisher has responded me on my quest for publishers,
except for one who had the guts to tell the real reason for not publishing the game:
"The graphics don't live up to our expectations, and we don't believe in the adventure game genre."
I've seen some indie adventure games pass that got published these last years that don't live up to the gameplay of Tears of Betrayal (I'm not telling they are bad, please don't think that). And with don't live up, I mean that ToB has much more possibilities and much more different puzzles and games than most of them.
Even the music in ToB is better than most even professional games and it's completely original.
What is the reason for this refusal? I think graphics (and graphical effects), because I can't think of any other reason.
I don't think I just took all the wrong email adresses or contact forms on the publishers' websites.
Visit http://www.tears-of-betrayal.com for a new old-skool adventure game!
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