| 5 JAN 2003 at 2:05am |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | You're absolutely right, kay.
But just out of rational thought which would be more correct: 2nd person or 3rd person?
That's the only thing I wanted to tell Aya. 2nd person would be the right choice, because you are the second person. It's simple, isn't it?
I'm willing to simplify the whole affair, but then you have at least to give the correct definition - aside from what is common, perfectly correct, kay - and think about it.
You can't just say, "There is no 2nd person", and behave like the term "3rd person perspective" is logically correct.
It's what people made of that term, because it isn't correct.
3rd person had nothing to do with classic adventures.
If you make no difference between the angles, then you must say 2nd person, because you are the second person, not the third.
If you want to keep to your logic, you have to admit: There is no 3rd person! Just a second, and that's you.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 2:12am |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (5 JAN 2003 1:59am)
Elfstone i explained above... it's all grammarwise!
If it is grammarwise, why don't you make a difference between the perspectives in let's say Monkey Island and Morrowind - to take a non-action/adventure-example?
You can't tell me there's no difference. I honestly don't believe you.
2nd person in my definition would only be possible in 3d-games, because only these can give you the feeling that a second person is present in the game world.
In "classic adventures" you are just a spectator, you are not inside the world which qualifies you as the 3rd person according to grammar, that's right Aya.
To put it straight:
If you can turn the view at least a bit, it's automatically 3d. You are in the world, you are the second person - if it's not ego-perspective of course. That would be my definition, if I had the power to force my opinion onto the population of this planet!
Now tell me this isn't logical?
I wonder if you can do that.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 2:26am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Elfstone (5 JAN 2003 2:05am)
There is no 3rd person! Just a second, and that's you.
and what if 2 ppl are playing the game? who is the 2nd and who is the 3rd person? is the player holding the mouse (or whatever) the 2nd person and the other the 3rd? and is there a possibility of a 4th person too? or something like "Syberia was a fantastic 67th person game - i was watching it stading in the back of the room with 65 other ppl (do the math!)"?
there is no "you" that's what i'm trying to say... taking MI as an example: you (the viewer of Guybrush's world) are a 3rd person to him... in real life, when you watch ppl walk by you you're not watching in 2nd person, but in 3rd person
If it is grammarwise, why don't you make a difference between the perspectives in let's say Monkey Island and Morrowind - to take a non-action/adventure-example?
You can't tell me there's no difference. I honestly don't believe you
there is... the angle... they're both 3rd person games (Morrowind when viewed that way) viewed from a different angle
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 2:40am |
kayIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 35
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Elfstone said.......
>>That would be my definition, if I had the power to force my opinion onto the population of this planet! <<
But you don't. You need to do an "ahem" paradigm shift back to how all of this is commonly considered. It doesn't matter if you think your way is right or more logical. Actually your way makes no sense to me. You just have to understand that to get by you may have to live by commonly accepted (for centuries) ways in which this stuff is seen. Or you could just go nuts I suppose trying to push your alternative view on a very minor matter that most of the world already agrees on. kay
Kay&&We don't see the world as it is. We see it as we are. Anais Nin
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 2:43am |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | @Aya
Yes, your points are alright.
But don't you see how illogical it is to call it 3rd person?
It has nothing to do with grammar, because 2nd person grammarwise is abstract. In fact, 2nd and 3rd person are the same, 2nd person is just closer to the person addressed. But it still is an abstract concept.
If you accept this abstract concept then the step to my abstract definition of 2nd person perspective is just as logical as the common definition.
The first part of your post will be ignored.
That's hilarious.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 2:44am |
kayIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 35
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Aya_Brea (5 JAN 2003 1:59am)
i agree with you that 3rd p/s and 1st p/p is falsh... but it is true that 1st p swing more towards puzzles and 3rd p more towards story... but it's not a rule... if i was to divide advs to all the subgenres (yes i'm on topic now!), erm, i wouldn't! cause there are so many it'll hurt! (not to mention trying to include the hybrids) so i mostly divide to txt/1st person/3rd person.... but it's all ONE genre... other genres appear only on hybrids
Elfstone i explained above... it's all grammarwise!
I expect you are right. And when we start parsing this all at this level, it means we are talking about games too much and not playing them enough. kay
Kay&&We don't see the world as it is. We see it as we are. Anais Nin
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 2:54am |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By kay (5 JAN 2003 2:40am)
Elfstone said.......
>>That would be my definition, if I had the power to force my opinion onto the population of this planet! <<
But you don't. You need to do an "ahem" paradigm shift back to how all of this is commonly considered. It doesn't matter if you think your way is right or more logical. Actually your way makes no sense to me. You just have to understand that to get by you may have to live by commonly accepted (for centuries) ways in which this stuff is seen. Or you could just go nuts I suppose trying to push your alternative view on a very minor matter that most of the world already agrees on. kay
I'm just discussing with you and with Aya. I don't want to flame and I certainly don't want to force my opinion onto somebody. This was just a joke.
But I feel like some day this definition was applied to all games in a completely wrong sense.
3rd person perspective was a special perspective which was introduced by action/adventures like Tomb Raider. This term didn't exist before. It certainly wasn't intended to be applied to classic adventure games. This is wrong!
If you can't keep to these customs - and Aya for example can't do that, he/she/whatever (sorry, but I just don't know!) applies this especially reserved perspective to 2d-games, which is in fact not correct, but seems to be common nowadays, hey, I used to do that myselves! - then tell me why should I do that?
I have the same rights as Aya. He/She doesn't accept that 3rd person is a term originally reserved for 3d-games only...I don't accept that this term is used at all.
Kay, if you blame me for my viewpoint, you have to blame Aya as well!
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 2:57am |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By kay (5 JAN 2003 2:44am)
And when we start parsing this all at this level, it means we are talking about games too much and not playing them enough. kay
Kay, this is absolutely correct!
But I enjoy a nice discussion from time to time as I enjoy playing games. Especially if this discussion is related to games.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 3:04am |
kayIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 35
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Elfstone said.......
>>I'm just discussing with you and with Aya. I don't want to flame and I certainly don't want to force my opinion onto somebody. This was just a joke. <<
That's good. If it was a joke, I hope you had fun. I sometimes have to remind myself that many people on this board are just playing for no other reason than to play and I shouldn't take them seriously. kay
Kay&&We don't see the world as it is. We see it as we are. Anais Nin
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 3:19am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Elfstone (didn't know what to quote first!) where did you come up with the idea that "3rd person" appeared with Tomb Raider? 3rd person is not a phrase used for games, it's a phrase used generally... and it's been used for games before... there were 1st and 3rd person racing games for example... and adventures became 3rd person with KQ1... i don't know how to explain it... imagine Guybrush having a mind of his own thinking "someone's watching me"... YOU are that someone, but you're a 3rd person... i don't know what else to say without repeating myself... have you ever watched any episode of Big Brother and that kind of stuff? (appropriate word avoided) do you think that's 2nd person too? or does it depend on where the player stands according to the camera's angle?
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 3:21am |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By kay (5 JAN 2003 2:44am)
I expect you are right. And when we start parsing this all at this level, it means we are talking about games too much and not playing them enough. kay
don't i know it : but whenever i'm online and i think "time to logout now" smth always appears
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 3:53am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | I think I understand where Elfstone is going... 1st/3rd person makes perfect sense (grammatically) in books which talk either about what "I" did or what "he/she/it" did.
Most text adventure games however talk about what "you" did, which, grammatically speaking, is quite clearly 2nd person. Not 1st, not 3rd. Most graphical adventures continue this tradition and talk about what "you" did.
Example: let's say we're playing SQ6 and the narrator says "You give the bottle of coldsorian brandy to the bum". That's 2nd person. 1st person would be "I give..." and 3rd person would be "Roger gives...".
There are 1st person adventures, like Tex Murphy. Tex will say "I went to see my client and when I arrived..." in his own voice. That's a perfect example of 1st person.
3rd person however... I'm sure there are some games that use it but I can't think of any right now.
I forgot my sig.
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 4:15am |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | I think the poo poo head language artists goofed everything up a long long time ago...they made it ambiguous.
Like Elfstone said the word perspective does make a difference. We think of perspective as lets say "what the audience sees."...then there really shouldn't be a 2nd person perspective; 2nd and 3rd person perspectives should have been combined into one perspective. Grammar wise what everyone else has stated is still right (ie 2nd=you). With movies and graphical games and such you can't show a 2nd person POV. Only pure text or narration shows a 2nd person view.
Does this sound good?
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 6:24am |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MichalN (4 JAN 2003 6:58pm)
That's interesting. I thought you didn't like Myst? From what you said here, it sounds like you should love it...
What did you just say to me? Why don't you insult my mother as well while you're at it?
So in your opinion, Myst had good puzzles?
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 6:28am |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By stooge4444 (4 JAN 2003 7:22pm)
And Alkis, I thought we determined that the original text Adventures were 2nd person.
Did we? I guess I missed that discussion. I guess you have a point though, as the game descriptions always started with "You are there, you do that...". Anyway, I was talking about the text adventures that featured a primitive graphics screen, like the Hobbitt for instance. The perspective was always first person in those screens.
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 6:35am |
alkis21Schattenjger
Posts : 2112
Joined: 23 OCT 2002
Location: GR
Status : Offline | I just finished reading the whole thread, Jesus you people are lunatics! No wonder I feel right at home in here. This is too much for me to read when having my morning coffee.
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 8:47am |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By alkis21 (5 JAN 2003 6:24am)
What did you just say to me?
You said you cared for puzzles more than for a story, not I
So in your opinion, Myst had good puzzles?
I have no opinion on that. I never played Myst. I mean to but I still have too many non-Myst games to play
I forgot my sig.
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 3:00pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | @MichalN & stooge
Yes, that was the first part of the discussion. There is a difference between 3rd person and 3rd person perspective. Many people mix that up and it leads to confusion and people like Aya have to wonder what they are talking about. Same with me. I'm wondering as well. It is certain that the terms are confused a lot.
But after this I presented my theory of 2nd person perspective and so far nobody has adopted to this. After last night I'm even not so sure about it myself.
But I'm still quite sure that the term as it is commonly used nowadays doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.
Ok, I'm maybe not around for as long as Aya might be (I still don't know the gender to start with ), but I seem to remember that the term "3rd person perspective" began to be technically used since Tomb Raider.
I admit that the term might wrongfully be labeled as a new invention back then like it is confused with grammatical cases today and in this forum.
@alkis
Yes, bunch of crazy people with crazy opinions here, you're right.
Feels like home to me.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 3:07pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By MichalN (5 JAN 2003 3:53am)
3rd person however... I'm sure there are some games that use it but I can't think of any right now.
Michal, you disappoint me...Gabriel Knight of course!
It's a mixture as there are some first person comments, too. If you try to take Gabriel he responds, "You already got me, you lucky devil!".
Although I ordered the Bundle with GK1&2 in German I also have GK as abandonware, because I wanted to play the original once. Shady business on my side, but the bundle is already ordered so who are you to blame me? And it's not even the CD version. Just the poor disk thing without speech.
I'm looking forward towards the Bundle.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 5:32pm |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Okay
But Panty Raider was definitely not the first...
At the very least would be its creator, Alone in the Dark.
And I am still positive that they used the term before 1992 (when AITD came out). You know that was damn long ago...now I'm remembering how spectacular that game was for it's time...
Another thing are we talking about that the publishers marketed the games with the exact phrase "3rd person POV/perspective?" If true, then that is very specific since they could have marketed a game that was 3rd person (like Kung Fu Master in 84) and not have used the specific term "3rd person POV." This is a very specific piece of trivia and would be hard to prove without all 3rd person game boxes infront of us...
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 5:39pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Yes stooge, Alone in the Dark has to be the first action/adventure I think.
Forgot about that one.
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 5:47pm |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | But look at my thrid paragraph: which are we talking about?
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 5:54pm |
ElfstoneGuild Master
Posts : 5892
Joined: 4 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Hard question. Since I am not a gamer of the first hour I can honestly not answer it.
The first game I ever heard about which was marketed with 3rd person perspective was Tomb Raider.
And Alone in the Dark as you remind me. Although I wasn't playing any games at its release yet.
I never ever heard of an adventure in the classic style being 3rd person perspective before Tomb Raider made the term popular - which is my opinion, not yours of course.
Poor Fickfack, we strayed off this topic really much...
[b]playing[/b]: Destination Treasure Island (done in two sittings, but it's nice), Syberia (ho-hum), Dracula: Last Sanctuary (on hold)&&[b]reading[/b]: even more study papers&&[b]listening to[/b]: [url=http://www.last.fm/user/Brax82/]this and that[/url], plus [url=http://www.musicovery.com/]Musicovery[/url]&&[b]TV favorites[/b]: (currently) Pushing Daisies, Chuck, Journeyman (cancelled! grrr...), Heroes&& all-time) 24, Stargate SG1, X-Files, Lost, House
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 6:36pm |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | No we didn't stray; we are defining the underlying support for the different styles of the Adventure genre...He'll be fine...
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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| 5 JAN 2003 at 7:47pm |
MichalNGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7058
Joined: 14 SEP 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Elfstone (5 JAN 2003 3:06pm)
Michal, you disappoint me...Gabriel Knight of course!
You are right... I didn't remember because, to tell the truth, narrator comments are not what I usually remember most about a game. But yes, this is exactly what I meant by 3rd person, because the narrator says "Gabriel does this or that...".
Speaking of which, the narrator in GK1 talks with rather unusual accent. Anyone know what it is?
Just the poor disk thing without speech.
I'm looking forward towards the Bundle.
Heh, I've got original CD versions (well, re-release of GK1) of all three Although I first played floppy version of GK1 too.
I forgot my sig.
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