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| 23 MAR 2005 at 10:12pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By krkdnose (23 MAR 2005 4:50pm)
Ok, I guess I won't challenge you to a duel after all
Whew! Thank Heaven! Another bullet dodged!
TrueImage is a great piece of software. I used to use Drive Image up until version 7. I didn't like that one at all (which means I also dislike the current version of Ghost which is essentially just Drive Image 7 redone slightly). I didn't like the fact that I couldn't create an image from the boot disc. You HAD to do it from Windows (and only 2000/XP). And whenever I loaded it from the boot disc, I had to use floppy driver disks to enable my raid arrays.
So I stuck with Drive Image 2002 because the previous versions of TrueImage didn't work with my raid arrays at all. But the latest version does (True Image 8 ) and it's a much slicker offering than Ghost (Drive Image 7).
Ah, great minds! I followed almost the same path as you. Stayed with Drive Image thru v7, but found that it was becoming more limited and ponderous- didn't like having to install Microsoft *.NET and then there was the bug where you couldn't Restore if you had memory media (eg. a CF card) in a USB drive. So converted to Acronis TI v8 recently which uses a Linux OS. Was a little ticked to see my original standard, Norton Ghost (still used it for all the Win95/98 backups using just a floppy disk to start up from DOS) dumped, giving the name to Drive Image. Yikes!
(Well, I'm continued off-topic a bit, but I think this stuff is good for people to learn about. If everybody backed up with these programs there would be much less aggravation when a system goes down!)
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 24 MAR 2005 at 1:12am |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (23 MAR 2005 10:02pm)
To infer that it doesn't work is incorrect; it only means that you are expecting more out of it than it was designed to do in the first place.
Agreed, I did infer that it doesn't work [all of the time]... well, it didn't the one time I needed it so I don't bother using it at all now
FYI I use Ghost as a snapshot tool these days. Quite 'heavy' but a robust solution nonetheless. Interim to Ghost snapshots I use the standard Emergeny Repair Disk facility and archive the Registry hives on to another drive. Finally I've got some great tools (from Winternals) which can do pretty much anything with a dead/dying system. For the uber tech people around, you can also create your own tools - http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/ for details. Clearly anything of this nature is only of use if you know exactly *what* is broken and then *how* to fix it
Somewhat back on topic tho... I've never experienced any copy protection scheme that has trashed a PC to the extent I needed to use anything major like state restoration or diagnostic access.
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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| 25 MAR 2005 at 6:56pm |
Cathy1Sorcerer Apprentice
Posts : 345
Joined: 22 JAN 2003
Status : Online | Hi Folks
Here's a starforce driver remover.
cathy
http://www.onlinesecurity-on.com/protect.phtml?c=55
If Your Not Playing Adventure,Your Not Really Playing.
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| 26 MAR 2005 at 2:22am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Cathy1 (25 MAR 2005 6:56pm)
Hi Folks
Here's a starforce driver remover.
cathy
http://www.onlinesecurity-on.com/protect.phtml?c=55
I don't know about the current version of this program, but the old one did not work - at least not on all computers. The drivers remained.
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| 29 MAR 2005 at 12:40am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | There have been a few changes and addendums to the original list of "newer" games with information RE: Copy Protection schemata and "unmentioned" Graphics Requirements.
Again, many thanks to all who responded, especially those of you with valuable information regarding: Copy-Protection, corrective links, System Restore utilities with restorative qualities (but still leave unwanted Registry files and drivers - resulting in wasted hard drive space), Drive Imaging software (and the later, better versions thereof), and finally - certain games' peculiarities.
Particularily helpful were the discussions about certain games that may require extra (and time-consuming) efforts to remove the drivers left behind in ones' System Registry.
But back to the games themselves:
Here is what I have gathered so far from this Topic about StarForce, SafeDisk, etc., being present on this rather short list of Adventure Games (and, uh...a couple of other game genres):- Alida - Full installation onto hard drive available. Does not use StarForce
- American McGee's Scrapland - Has copy protection - uses StarForce
- Aura - Full installation available. Main CD must remain in CD drive 1. Does not use Starforce
- The Black Mirror - Has copy protection - supposedly uses an rather nasty version of StarForce
- Broken Sword 3 - Has copy protection - U.S version uses StarForce
- Curse: The Eye of Isis - Has copy protection - uses StarForce
- Dark Fall I - Installs completely to the hard drive and needs no CD/DVD in CD/DVD-ROM drive to play
- Dark Fall II - Installs completely to the hard drive and needs no CD/DVD in CD/DVD-ROM drive to play
- Moment of Silence - The Adventure Company CD-ROM version may not have copy protection
- Moment of Silence - DVD version may use StarForce
- Myst IV - Has copy protection but can be fully installed to the hard drive
- NiBiRu - Messenger of i - German version uses ProtectCD
- NiBiRu - Messenger of i - French version uses a "keyless" version of StarForce
- Return to Mysterious Island - Installs completely to the hard drive and needs no CD/DVD in CD/DVD-ROM drive to play
- Runaway - Some versions use StarForce, but possibly there are "keyless" versions of this game.
- Sentinel: Descendants in Time - Installs completely to the hard drive and needs no CD/DVD in CD/DVD-ROM drive to play - but requires a hardware Transform and Lighting (T&L-capable and enabled) video card to avoid possible crashes, lockups, and poor performance
- Still Life - [s]May or may not have StarForce copy protection and is undetermined at this time[/s]. (Additional info from: The Official Still Life Forums. Still Life will be available on both XBox and PC systems. It seems that StarForce will, indeed, be integrated into the PC version of Still Life. Proceed with caution
- Syberia 2 - German version of Syberia 2 may use StarForce; the US version may use SafeDisk
- Traitors Gate 2 - Has copy protection - uses StarForce
- Uru: Ages Beyond - Uses SafeDisk copy protection scheme; requires CD in drive to play
- Uru To D'ni - Expansion Pack 1 for Uru - Uses SafeDisk copy protection scheme; requires CD in drive to play
- Uru: The Path of the Shell - Expansion Pack 2 for Uru - Uses SafeDisk copy protection scheme; requires CD in drive to play
If you wish, add any additional comments regarding the individual games (also please add more games if you wish). If I have made any errors, please advise.
Thank you!
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 29 MAR 2005 at 1:04am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | FWIW: Aura & Alida do not use Starforce. Aura allows full installation to the hard drive but requires that the main CD be in Drive 1. Alida can be run entirely from a full hard drive install.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 29 MAR 2005 at 5:22am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (29 MAR 2005 1:04am)
FWIW: Aura & Alida do not use Starforce. Aura allows full installation to the hard drive but requires that the main CD be in Drive 1. Alida can be run entirely from a full hard drive install.
Duly noted- thank you!
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 4 MAY 2005 at 7:28pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | The Uru games all use Safedisk.
The French version of NiBiRu uses StarForce keyless.
The German version of NiBiRu uses ProtectCD.
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| 4 MAY 2005 at 9:44pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (4 MAY 2005 7:27pm)
The Uru games all use Safedisk.
The French version of NiBiRu uses StarForce keyless.
The German version of NiBiRu uses ProtectCD.
Thanks, Jenny!
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 5 MAY 2005 at 4:19pm |
The Terror of the Wolf part 3Schattenjger
Posts : 2391
Joined: 11 OCT 2002
Status : Online | This is probably going to show just how busy I've been that I've not been paying much attention...
But could someone PM me to tell me what the problem with this Starforce program is anyways? It leaves 'something' on the system after uninstall, or what?
[url=http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136331866/0#0]GAMES FOR TRADE!![/url]
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| 5 MAY 2005 at 7:33pm |
Cartmans DadSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 15 DEC 2003
Status : Online | Sorry to join the discussion so late, but here's a comprehensive list (including the latest) of games and their respective CD/DVD protections:
http://www.makeabackup.com/database.html
(Click on the initial letter of the game you want to find out about)
Yes, Still Life is unfortunately StarForce protected. :
Wolfboy,
In answer to your query, here's the official StarForce take on the subject and which also includes a link to download the latest StarForce driver removal tool.
http://www.star-force.com/protection.phtml?c=91
HTH?
Wanderer
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| 5 MAY 2005 at 7:38pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | It should also be noted that the problem is not just that StarForce leaves drivers behind.
If it finds something on a system that it doesn't like, it will involve itself in the IDE links between the motherboard and any IDE devices (hard drives, CD drives, DVD drives, etc.) and render that system nearly, though not quite, useless.
This is not rumor. This is my personal experience.
I will never buy or ask for as a gift ANY title protected by StarForce. Just not worth it.
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| 6 MAY 2005 at 7:10am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By MrLipid (5 MAY 2005 7:38pm)
It should also be noted that the problem is not just that StarForce leaves drivers behind.
If it finds something on a system that it doesn't like, it will involve itself in the IDE links between the motherboard and any IDE devices (hard drives, CD drives, DVD drives, etc.) and render that system nearly, though not quite, useless.
This is not rumor. This is my personal experience.
I will never buy or ask for as a gift ANY title protected by StarForce. Just not worth it.
Then you'll be playing very few games in the future I think
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| 6 MAY 2005 at 3:46pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Bazza_v2.5 (6 MAY 2005 7:10am)
Then you'll be playing very few games in the future I think
I think you're right.
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| 6 MAY 2005 at 4:34pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Before one gives up on all Starforce games and thus, a number of recent and anticipated releases, here's a suggestion- which may seem rash, but is better than giving up AGs:
Use an image program such as Acronis TrueImage or Norton Ghost->make an image of your C-Drive, load the game, play the game, finish the game, then reload the original image. I can't see any way that remnants of StarForce could survive that. And if it even remotely could, then a low-level format of the C-Drive before reloading the image would take care of any Starforce 'debris'. The only other way StarForce could survive is by affecting the BIOS which seems rather unlikely!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 6 MAY 2005 at 4:57pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (6 MAY 2005 4:33pm)
Before one gives up on all Starforce games and thus, a number of recent and anticipated releases, here's a suggestion- which may seem rash, but is better than giving up AGs:
Use an image program such as Acronis TrueImage or Norton Ghost->make an image of your C-Drive, load the game, play the game, finish the game, then reload the original image. I can't see any way that remnants of StarForce could survive that. And if it even remotely could, then a low-level format of the C-Drive before reloading the image would take care of any Starforce 'debris'. The only other way StarForce could survive is by affecting the BIOS which seems rather unlikely!
Or I could just set aside a hard drive and let StarForce do whatever it wants. I've done that already for the title that crippled my system.
Sadly, I find the process of shutting down my system, opening up my system, unplugging my work drive and CD burner, plugging in the StarForce drive, closing up my system and rebooting my system just to play a game sufficiently cumbersome that I haven't done it very often. By the time the StarForce drive has come to life, I am no longer in a mood to play.
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| 6 MAY 2005 at 5:07pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By MrLipid (6 MAY 2005 4:56pm)
Or I could just set aside a hard drive and let StarForce do whatever it wants. I've done that already for the title that crippled my system.
Sadly, I find the process of shutting down my system, opening up my system, unplugging my work drive and CD burner, plugging in the StarForce drive, closing up my system and rebooting my system just to play a game sufficiently cumbersome that I haven't done it very often. By the time the StarForce drive has come to life, I am no longer in a mood to play.
StarForce is an absolute disaster isn't it. For people who don't understand what's going on- a simple explanation is that a key part of StarForce is the placing of drivers on your system that interact/interfere with the functioning of your hard disk & optical/cdrom drives at a very low level. It has caused problems on several levels: 1) you can't get the game to work to begin with because StarForce doesn't like/recognize your DVD/CD drive, 2) it won't allow a game to run if you're using a virtual drive/image program such as TrueImage or Alcohol, and 3) even if you uninstall the game, StarForce drivers can still remain and screw up your drives.
People are really going to an extreme to defeat StarForce- de-installing WinXP Service Pack 2, re-installing WinXP, using USB external drives while disconnecting their IDE drives. No easy answers here although my post above is a good solution for getting rid of all remnants of StarForce after you've played the game; it's weakness of course is that it assumes that your system is working fine with StarForce while you're playing the game.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 6 MAY 2005 at 6:22pm |
MrLipidPrivate Detective
Posts : 666
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (6 MAY 2005 5:06pm)
No easy answers here although my post above is a good solution for getting rid of all remnants of StarForce after you've played the game; it's weakness of course is that it assumes that your system is working fine with StarForce while you're playing the game.
And that's the problem. My StarForce system is only usable for playing a StarForce-controlled game. Might as well be a console.
My solution is to avoid the whole issue. The fear of publishers over piracy has driven them to severely, perhaps fatally, compromise the experience they are trying to sell me. I can spend my entertainment dollars somewhere else.
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| 6 MAY 2005 at 7:12pm |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Wanderer (5 MAY 2005 7:33pm)
Sorry to join the discussion so late, but here's a comprehensive list (including the latest) of games and their respective CD/DVD protections:
http://www.makeabackup.com/database.html
(Click on the initial letter of the game you want to find out about)...
Thank you, Wanderer! Where have you been? We needed you.
Anyway...there are many Adventure (and other genres) games that are not listed at the makeabackup website.
Some of these are:- Alida
- Adventure at the Chateau d'Or
- Beyond Atlantis II
- Atlantis: Evolutions
- Cameron Files 1: Secret at Loch Ness
- Cameron Files 2: The Pharaoh's Curse
- Clue Chronicles: Fatal Illusion
- Crystal Key II, The
- CSI 1: Crime Scene Investigation
- Salammbo: Battle for Carthage
- Uru To D'ni - Expansion Pack 1 for Uru
...and on and on...
The makeabackup website welcomes any information regarding any form of Copy Protection for any game, so if one feels inclined to make a contribution to this rather comprehensive (but lacking on many recent Adventure Games) list, please do so.
As I said in my opening statement, I am not interested in downloading any form of the various "Copying" or "Backup" software. That includes:- Alcohol
- AnyDVD
- [s]ArayScanner[/s] - Correction (Thanks, Jenny!): only used to identify what copy protection is being used
- Blindwrite
- Clone CD
- Clone DVD
- [s]Daemon Tools[/s] - Correction (Thanks, Jenny!): does not create images; only mounts images that were made with another program
- [s]Protection ID[/s] - Correction (Thanks, Jenny!): only used to identify what copy protection is being used
I simply want to install a game, play it, uninstall it, and then know for a fact that there aren't any "leftovers". I want a clean uninstall for any game I play (except for maybe the "Saved Games" folders).
A question, please for those of you "in the know":
[s]I bought Doom 3[/s] (and returned it unopened - it's "age-inappropriate" for the people in this house) [s](Hey! If I can make it through Clive Barker's Undying, I think I can make it through Doom 3 - I'll let you know). [/s] It didn't happen.
[s]I bought it mainly for the kids and nephews to push my new graphics card to the edge, but I may take a look...[/s]...haven't even had a glimpse.
Anyway: it has Safedisc 3.20.022 as its Copy Protection (but oddly enough, the DOOM 3: Resurrection of Evil Expansion Pack for Doom 3 has no Copy Protection. Weird).
Is this Safedisc 3.20.022 something anyone needs to get worked up over? Will Doom 3 uninstall completely - including all the Safedisc 3.20.022 stuff?
Thanks! And all of you can rest easily now, because Shivers 2 has no Copy Protection!
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 6 MAY 2005 at 8:09pm |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | To clear up what seems to be a misunderstanding, A-Ray and ProtectionID are NOT for copying or "backing up" software. The ONLY thing they do is identify what copy "protection" is being used.
And Daemon-Tools isn't for copying either. It does not create images. It only mounts images that were made with another program. So it's only half of what you need if you want to create and mount images of your game CD's.
Sherlock Holmes Secret of the Silver Earring used some version of Safedisk 3.2. It might have been Safedisc 3.20.022 but I don't remember all those numbers offhand. I don't know if it will uninstall with the game, but you can check it yourself. After uninstalling your Doom 3, check your hidden drivers list for something called secdrv. I found it in the same location as the StarForce drivers were listed, under non-Plug'nPlay drivers.
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| 7 MAY 2005 at 12:09am |
MarkGuild Master
Posts : 3839
Joined: 10 OCT 2002
Location: US, Georgia
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Jenny100 (6 MAY 2005 8:09pm)
To clear up what seems to be a misunderstanding, A-Ray and ProtectionID are NOT for copying or "backing up" software. The ONLY thing they do is identify what copy "protection" is being used.
Okay. Thanks, Jenny. You can tell I don't know what does what, so I appreciate you telling us that these applications - A-Ray and ProtectionID - merely inform us as to which Copy Protection is used for a particular game.
Originally Posted By Jenny100 (6 MAY 2005 8:09pm)
And Daemon-Tools isn't for copying either. It does not create images. It only mounts images that were made with another program. So it's only half of what you need if you want to create and mount images of your game CD's.
Here's where I was first exposed to the "Got six game CDs and tired of disc-swapping?" "Put them all on your hard drive, and no more disc-swapping!" scenario a couple of years ago.
Sounded good to me, so I got Daemon-Tools and decided I really didn't have enough hard drive space (2 little-bitty gigabytes!) to "mirror" the CDs I had for a game that had so many CDs, so I opted to uninstall Daemon-Tools.
I used the Daemon-Tools uninstaller - doing a full "uninstall", but Daemon-Tools left stuff on my hard drive, like a CD-ROM drive letter ("F:" that I cannot get rid of!
My old P350 came with: a 3.5" floppy drive, a 4 GB hard drive (partioned C: and D: - for Systems), and one CD-ROM drive: E:.
I have no real Drive "F:", and I have tried many things trying unmount that drive, and get rid of the "F:" drive letter that pops up every time I open "My Computer".
Can someone (in plain English) please tell me how to get rid of it, because I'm guessing Daemon-Tools created it as a virtual drive, and then left it there.
Originally Posted By Jenny100 (6 MAY 2005 8:09pm)
Sherlock Holmes Secret of the Silver Earring used some version of Safedisk 3.2. It might have been Safedisc 3.20.022 but I don't remember all those numbers offhand. I don't know if it will uninstall with the game, but you can check it yourself. After uninstalling your Doom 3, check your hidden drivers list for something called secdrv. I found it in the same location as the StarForce drivers were listed, under non-Plug'nPlay drivers.
Thanks, Jenny, but if Safedisc 3.20.022 is something not to be reckoned with - leaving flotsam and jetsam on my new computer - I'd rather not unwrap Doom 3, and just return it for my $50 back. I'll play ball with the kids instead (just in case anyone is wondering - they are all old enough to play Doom 3 - 17+).
Seriously, though: Thank you, Jenny. You really help everyone so much around here, you really do.
Please proofread your posts carefully to see if you any words out.
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| 7 MAY 2005 at 1:48am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | I don't know if this is of any use to anybody, but there is something called Starf*ck Tools (seriously) that makes a mini-image such that you can play Starforce games having disabled IDE drives w/o disconnecting cables.
http://www.gameburnworld.com/cdprotectionutilities.htm
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 7 MAY 2005 at 4:34am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Mark (7 MAY 2005 12:08am)
I used the Daemon-Tools uninstaller - doing a full "uninstall", but Daemon-Tools left stuff on my hard drive, like a CD-ROM drive letter ("F:" that I cannot get rid of!
I'm surprised it left that there. That's a problem with the uninstaller.
My old P350 came with: a 3.5" floppy drive, a 4 GB hard drive (partioned C: and D: - for Systems), and one CD-ROM drive: E:.
I have no real Drive "F:", and I have tried many things trying unmount that drive, and get rid of the "F:" drive letter that pops up every time I open "My Computer".
Can someone (in plain English) please tell me how to get rid of it, because I'm guessing Daemon-Tools created it as a virtual drive, and then left it there.
I assume you've tried removing it through Device Manager and it just returns when you reboot. I guess the next thing to try is to reinstall Daemon-Tools and remove the drive from there before before uninstalling Daemon-Tools again.
Thanks, Jenny, but if Safedisc 3.20.022 is something not to be reckoned with - leaving flotsam and jetsam on my new computer - I'd rather not unwrap Doom 3, and just return it for my $50 back. I'll play ball with the kids instead (just in case anyone is wondering - they are all old enough to play Doom 3 - 17+).
You might check your hidden driver list to see if you already have it left over from another game. (Look for Secdrv in the non-Plug'nPlay drivers, not Safedisc). It doesn't seem to be harmful the way StarForce is. It might prevent your game from working if it doesn't like your CD drive or something else on your computer, but other than that I haven't heard of any harmful effects from it.
edit - I checked Sherlock Holmes Silver Earring again and it has Safedisc 3.20.022 - the same version as you say Doom 3 has.
Uru Complete Chronicles is identified as having Safedisc 2.90.040.
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| 7 MAY 2005 at 11:34am |
Cartmans DadSpace Cadet
Posts : 185
Joined: 15 DEC 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Mark (7 MAY 2005 12:08am)
I used the Daemon-Tools uninstaller - doing a full "uninstall", but Daemon-Tools left stuff on my hard drive, like a CD-ROM drive letter ("F:" that I cannot get rid of!
My old P350 came with: a 3.5" floppy drive, a 4 GB hard drive (partioned C: and D: - for Systems), and one CD-ROM drive: E:.
I have no real Drive "F:", and I have tried many things trying unmount that drive, and get rid of the "F:" drive letter that pops up every time I open "My Computer".
Can someone (in plain English) please tell me how to get rid of it, because I'm guessing Daemon-Tools created it as a virtual drive, and then left it there.
Mark,
There's some instructions for this problem at the Daemon Tools forum website here:
http://www.daemon-tools.cc/dtcc/portal/viewtopic.php?t=506
I'm sure you've upgraded your hard drive since then? If not, then you would really be missing out on a lot of adventure games which use at least 2-3Gb or more (Myst IV for example) installation space.
Also, having lots of free space to mount images in virtual drives is a great way to play those multi-disk games such as Obsidian, Riven, GK2 without ANY prompts for disk swapping.
I think you're being unnecessarily paranoid about Safedisc. I've never heard of anyone suffering ill effects from having installed games using that protection.
You can read some opinions or ask a question if you're really worried about it at:
http://forum.cdfreaks.com/ for example. There are a lot of knowledgeable people there with a lot of experience of Safedisc and other CD protections.
With Starforce though, there seems to be growing animosity towards it and judging by the problems some people have had with it, understandably so.
I'm hoping that when (if) Still Life is released in the UK that Starforce protection won't be used on it, otherwise I'll avoid buying it.
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