| 13 FEB 2005 at 1:10am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Pastor_Disaster (12 FEB 2005 7:48pm)
I also felt a little disappointed in the whole "see a switch, flip it, even if nothing happens now" mode of operation. It seems there would be a switch or valve stuck in the middle of nowhere, and heaven help you if you didn't flip it then and there! But of course, you flip it and nothing noticeable happens--so did you do the right thing or not? You could play the entire game without ever knowing the reason WHY you were supposed to flip that switch!
I don't remember any switches where there wasn't some evidence that something happened even though it took some work to figure out what the significance of it was eg. such as the switches having to do with the bridges.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 1:18am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16553
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Remember on the kettle island after you've climbed up the ladder to the balcony and you go in the doors and fiddle for weeks placing a seed on a metal grille?
I swear one time the whole apparatus moved but do you think I could replicate that?
And I can't adequately describe my joy at finding (after a hint) that the doors actually covered other doors. Gosh, the weeks I spent wondering what the hell I was supposed to do just there...
But I second SirDave's comments about levers. Usually it was only a step or two to notice the difference they made. not so with Spire and I'm getting cross with it)
Getting to the map island made sense of so many things and the marbles - it all just fell into place. Except the animals, drove myself batty drawing little shapes. >
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 1:24am |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | No, I know. What I meant was, I'd walk along, see a switch, and automatically flip it (because there are no "red herring" switches). But having flipped it, I never see the "before" situation; I just interact with the "after."
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 5:29am |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16553
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Oh I understand your gaming strategy now..... chaos theory
But you see, you need to observe and understand before you can effectively operate anything. Riven was good for that, you did get to see changes.
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 3:02pm |
CrapstormJourneyman
Posts : 829
Joined: 18 FEB 2004
Status : Online | You also have to take a bit of a vacation from common sense. Why the combination to a secret lock would be coded as the contour of a cave mouth a mile away defies my ability to rationalize causal relationships. Riven, like most adventure games, requires you to just accept nonsensical connections like these, and that's my main grievance with the game. I can suspend disbelief, but only so far.
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 5:47pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Crapstorm (13 FEB 2005 3:01pm)
You also have to take a bit of a vacation from common sense. Why the combination to a secret lock would be coded as the contour of a cave mouth a mile away defies my ability to rationalize causal relationships. Riven, like most adventure games, requires you to just accept nonsensical connections like these, and that's my main grievance with the game. I can suspend disbelief, but only so far.
The animal puzzle in Riven was IMO it's one faux-pas! I replayed Riven recently and still came to that same conclusion. Virtually all the other puzzles were so clever- I can't think of any other game that so cleverly integrated various elements of puzzles such as the whole revolving doors & bridges etc. But the animal puzzle was simply from left field. I spent so much time trying to solve that puzzle in the 'Slab-Room' thinking that there was some way of solving it there- not knowing that there was no way unless you had solved all the animal figures elsewhere. Oh, I had already documented most of the animal figures and their significance, but no way did I see the one you're talking about & I know I never would have. Also, didn't see one other one that I won't give away in case someone hasn't played Riven yet. But even worse was the fact that 2 of the key animal pictures on the slabs were not good representations of what they were supposed to be even if you had seen all the animals elsewhere- that was a screw-up also!
Riven was one of the most perfect AGs I've ever played but only 98% so- could have been 100% if not for that damn puzzle! It would really be interesting to know who designed that puzzle- was it Rand or someone else? -it seemed so out of sync with all the others.
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 6:05pm |
CulturaJourneyman
Posts : 1337
Joined: 1 SEP 2004
Location: NL, Amersfoort
Status : Offline | I never have any problems suspending disbelief, after playing 50+ AG's. Fully agree on the slab-puzzle in RiVen. Even after reading the walkthrough, I could hardly comprehend the twisted logic. What where they thinking?
Otherwise, this would have been the perfect game.
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 10:03pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2005 5:47pm)
The animal puzzle in Riven was IMO it's one faux-pas! I replayed Riven recently and still came to that same conclusion. Virtually all the other puzzles were so clever- I can't think of any other game that so cleverly integrated various elements of puzzles such as the whole revolving doors & bridges etc. But the animal puzzle was simply from left field. I spent so much time trying to solve that puzzle in the 'Slab-Room' thinking that there was some way of solving it there- not knowing that there was no way unless you had solved all the animal figures elsewhere. Oh, I had already documented most of the animal figures and their significance, but no way did I see the one you're talking about & I know I never would have. Also, didn't see one other one that I won't give away in case someone hasn't played Riven yet. But even worse was the fact that 2 of the key animal pictures on the slabs were not good representations of what they were supposed to be even if you had seen all the animals elsewhere- that was a screw-up also!
Riven was one of the most perfect AGs I've ever played but only 98% so- could have been 100% if not for that damn puzzle! It would really be interesting to know who designed that puzzle- was it Rand or someone else? -it seemed so out of sync with all the others.
I'm amazed you think that. I thought that puzzle was one of the best I've ever seen in any adventure game. I agree that one clue was unfair - all the other animals could be recognised by the sounds they made, which was far easier - but the puzzle could still be solved by trial and error if you'd got the other clues correct. If they'd just included a sound clue for that last animal it would have been perfect.
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 10:19pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Supreme Goddess (13 FEB 2005 1:18am)
Remember on the kettle island after you've climbed up the ladder to the balcony and you go in the doors and fiddle for weeks placing a seed on a metal grille?
I swear one time the whole apparatus moved but do you think I could replicate that?
[SPOILERS, LARGE]
On that particular island, there's a three-way switch in the middle of the lake. If you point it to the middle position, it turns on power to the giant kettle; if you turn it to the left, it turns on power to the wood chipper. If you turn it to the right, it will turn on that particular device.
The device is a frog trap- if you put the bait into the device, close it, and pull a lever, it descends down into the water. After a while it will catch a frog, which you can bring up again. It hops around for a while before making a chirping noise corresponding to one of the sounds made by the wooden eyes. Essentially, that whole device was an extra clue for the animals puzzle, in case, like me, you had trouble seeing the frog silhouette in the cave.
[END OF SPOILERS, LARGE]
It's little details like that that make Riven so great, IMO. There are literally dozens of little touches which the average gamer will never notice on his first playthrough, but which are a testament to the effort that the game designers put into Riven. Hoo ha.
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 10:27pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Fickfack (13 FEB 2005 10:19pm)
[SPOILERS, LARGE]
The device is a frog trap- if you put the bait into the device, close it, and pull a lever, it descends down into the water. After a while it will catch a frog, which you can bring up again. It hops around for a while before making a chirping noise corresponding to one of the sounds made by the wooden eyes. Essentially, that whole device was an extra clue for the animals puzzle, in case, like me, you had trouble seeing the frog silhouette in the cave.
[END OF SPOILERS, LARGE]
It's little details like that that make Riven so great, IMO. There are literally dozens of little touches which the average gamer will never notice on his first playthrough, but which are a testament to the effort that the game designers put into Riven. Hoo ha.
[SPOILERS MODERATELY LARGE ctd]
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Maybe so, but that frog silhouette didn't look much like a frog & it didn't look much like the representation of a so-called frog on the stone Slab- in fact, at least 2 px on the slabs could have been a frog. That puzzle just sucked for me!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 10:34pm |
qriousPrivate Detective
Posts : 524
Joined: 8 AUG 2003
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By Ksandra (13 FEB 2005 10:02pm)
I'm amazed you think that. I thought that puzzle was one of the best I've ever seen in any adventure game.
same here.
[b][size=19][url]www.adventureadvocate.gr[/url][/size][/b]&&[b][size=10]The biggest adventure source in Greece[/size][/b]
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 10:39pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2005 10:27pm)
Maybe so, but that frog silhouette didn't look much like a frog & it didn't look much like the representation of a so-called frog on the stone Slab- in fact, at least 2 px on the slabs could have been a frog. That puzzle just sucked for me!
I think the frog image on the slab was too stylized- they should have made it look like the frog sillhoutte in the cave. But I'm actually somewhat pleased that the clues in Riven were more subtle than in many other adventure games.
[EXILE SPOILERS]
For example, the solutions to Exile's final puzzle are written out in Atrus' journal in big, black, bold type from the very beginning of the game. This, in my opinion, was a letdown, because the final puzzle was just an exercise in copying. I once read an adventure review which described such clues as "pieces of information which stand up in stovepipe hats and say 'We are clues. Please move along.'" This sort of thing ruins the atmosphere IMO
[END OF SPOILERS]
BTW, the Riven strategy guide uses the five animal figures from the animal puzzle, in order, as headings for the book's chapters! I couldn't believe that when I saw it- it seems to me to be such an obvious spoiler.
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 10:41pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2005 10:27pm)
[SPOILERS MODERATELY LARGE ctd]
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Maybe so, but that frog silhouette didn't look much like a frog & it didn't look much like the representation of a so-called frog on the stone Slab- in fact, at least 2 px on the slabs could have been a frog. That puzzle just sucked for me!
But you could see the frog itself in another part of the game, and hear the sound it made (just as you could do with all but one of the other animals). You weren't supposed to rely on the silhouette; that was just an extra clue. Anyway, I had no trouble with the frog slab... [smiley=shrug.gif]
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 10:43pm |
CarolineJA+ Overseer
Posts : 16553
Joined: 28 JAN 2007
Location: AU
Status : Offline | Wow!!!! I'm amazed. fickfack, thank you, thank you.
I shall definitely replay it that way and see that happen. Gosh, what fun. I wonder if I missed anything else. Well, actually, I seem to have missed the entire animal sound aspect to that puzzle. No wonder it stumped me.
I did see the outline in the cave but I had terrible trouble as the sames were badly matched. I ended up getting hints for this - it's the one puzzle I couldn't get all on my own. Now I see why - I missed some clues.
I'm so glad though that I now know what the hell that gadget is. I'm going to have to catch me a frog. )))
Caroline skips happily away.... any excuse to visit Riven..
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 10:52pm |
KsandraSchattenjger
Posts : 2459
Joined: 2 APR 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Supreme Goddess (13 FEB 2005 10:43pm)
I shall definitely replay it that way and see that happen. Gosh, what fun. I wonder if I missed anything else. Well, actually, I seem to have missed the entire animal sound aspect to that puzzle. No wonder it stumped me.
I'm quite amazed at the number of people who didn't realise it was a sound puzzle. I noticed the strange sounds the minute I tried moving one of those wooden ball things. In fact, I was the other way round - I didn't even realise at first that there were visual clues as well.
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 11:05pm |
| Deleted User | I'm with Ksandra. Another "AHA!" moment.
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| 13 FEB 2005 at 11:54pm |
qriousPrivate Detective
Posts : 524
Joined: 8 AUG 2003
Status : Offline | check this site if you want to know see the depth of Riven
Riven Illuminated:
http://www.geocities.com/p_aarli/main.html
[b][size=19][url]www.adventureadvocate.gr[/url][/size][/b]&&[b][size=10]The biggest adventure source in Greece[/size][/b]
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| 14 FEB 2005 at 12:22am |
GrimCurseIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 83
Joined: 8 SEP 2004
Status : Online | RIVEN! I had to stop playing after a while because the sheer size and beauty of the island was too overwhelming, Riven is a work of art.
[RIVEN SPOILERS]
The puzzles in Riven were hard but they were logical and fair, I knew right away that I had to associate the sound and the number with an animal, somehow. I solved the marble puzzle by myself but it took me a long time(weeks) before I realized the big white circle was a button!
[END OF SPOILERS]
SirDave, those letters in the classroom are written in D'ni, it translates as ''The rules of Ghen: Ghen is our master, Ghen created us, Ghen defeated Atrus.''
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| 14 FEB 2005 at 12:32am |
Lady KestrelGuild Master
Posts : 4047
Joined: 27 SEP 2004
Location: US, NJ
Status : Offline | Fickfack,
I just bought the guide a month or so ago for my collection and noticed the headings also. However, I don't think a gamer would put all that together unless he/she had already begun to figure out the puzzle.
I really enjoyed the puzzle, although it wasn't the cave shape that gave me the clue but the live and very adorable critters. The silent one had me stumped for quite a while. I thought it was a sound I kept missing until I took yet another a walk to the sub. That was a definite "aha" for me.
"Where is the fountain that throws up these flowers in a ceaseless outbreak of ecstasy?"
-Rabindranath Tagore
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| 14 FEB 2005 at 12:57am |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | SPOILER BELOW (if it matters anymore since this who thread has become one big Riven spoiler).
Well, I had the sounds down just fine & had made the connection of the frog sound in the frog catcher & the frog sound in the ball. But even when I go back- to my eyes that stupid cave outline doesn't look like a frog nor does it look like what was supposed to be the frog on the slab. They should have been consistent......damnit! >
And I don't want to talk to anyone ever again who had no trouble with that animal puzzle!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 14 FEB 2005 at 1:25am |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | Sorry, SirDave, but I had absolutely no problem with the animal puzzle...
...once I found a walkthrough online.
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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| 14 FEB 2005 at 2:13am |
GrimCurseIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 83
Joined: 8 SEP 2004
Status : Online | Wonderful site, qrious! Every little object/detail in Riven has a meaning, it's unbelievable.
I hate getting stucked in games but I kept doing the marbles puzzle in Riven over and over again, checking my notes, scrutinizing the island, I knew I had the right answer, it made so much sense. The sensation I felt when I finally clicked on the button and I heard the loud explosion, it was an achievement. I've never felt that way about any other game before or since Riven, now everytime I'm stucked it feels like a waste of time and I want to get it over with hints or walkthroughs. Please Cyan make Myst V a Riven II.
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| 14 FEB 2005 at 3:26am |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By SirDave (13 FEB 2005 5:47pm)
The animal puzzle in Riven was IMO it's one faux-pas! I replayed Riven recently and still came to that same conclusion. Virtually all the other puzzles were so clever- I can't think of any other game that so cleverly integrated various elements of puzzles such as the whole revolving doors & bridges etc. But the animal puzzle was simply from left field. [...]
Just so SirDave doesn't feel left alone with all of the opposing opinions to this viewpoints, I just wanna say:
ME TOO!!
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| 14 FEB 2005 at 3:49pm |
Pastor DisasterJourneyman
Posts : 1056
Joined: 14 DEC 2004
Status : Online | Frankly, sound-based clues are never my strong suit. It would be different if you had a "sound recorder" built in, like the "visual recorder" of Myst IV. But I had the devil's own time trying to figure out how to write "kee-koo" in such a way that it would make sense later. In the end, it was the visuals that solved it for me. Well, okay, in the end it was the walkthrough that solved it for me. Cheater, cheater, pumpkin-eater.
Dyslexics wonder why there isn't a word that means the same thing as "cinnamon."
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