| 27 DEC 2004 at 3:57pm |
| Deleted User | Great review, loved the idea to compare it with adventure games.
I'm saying this since years and get bashed in here since years for it, Adventure games need better graphics and technics to approach a wider audience. A good example is Gabriel Knight 3, maybe a good game but the graphics was outdated and years behind when the game was released.
I've seen some tech samples of what can be done with Poser 4 and also the full screen faces of the G-Man in HL2 and in Doom 3 (honestly I thought Doom's 3 face textures looked better) and yet I'm not so firm about programming (I just know that software would be at least double as fast when the compilers weren't in the way...). Still I think that many games and especially adventures could feature characters that looked much much better when using the available tools Maya, Poser, 3D Studio, Photoshop, a decent 3D engine and digital photo and video cameras and so on to their full potential. This is more a question of time and a creative mind who knows his job and how to work with this tools then a question of money, I think.
A side comment... my personal opinion, I now played HL2, Doom 3 and Chronicles of Riddick each for some hours at a friends place who has a fast machine. You won't believe me when I say that HL2 is my least favorite of them! I enjoyed Doom 3 enormously, it was a quick and dirty shooter, shut down your mind and just blow away everything that moves with some really nasty shock moments that made me flinch. Ideal for some free 30 minutes and then leave it for a day. Riddick was somewhat nice because it was no ordinary shooter, one had to search more and also it was more stealth, attacking a guard directly mostly got Riddick killed. HL2 had very good graphics but somehow the story and whole atmosphere didn't sucked me in that much as did the other two games. I'll play all 3 games some more so I'm not sure whether I'll feel the same about them, though.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 4:24pm |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SquarejawHero (27 DEC 2004 2:23pm)
I'm unhappy that you find it fit to rag on something that Petter and I worked so hard on nor understand that your comments might negatively effect anyone to read what we've put a lot of time and effort into. Regardless of whether you personally feel it deserves (in YOUR opinion) a place on this site, you haven't even read it and anyone can assume that we haven't made the effort to relate the positive elements of the game to the adventure genre.
That it wasn't too hard to do so speaks volumes for the pertinance of what the game offers even to an adventure gamer. If we sound positive about it, it's because we are. You should read Steve Ince's comments at AG'ers and see the opinions of a proven adventure game developer with regards to HL2 - the technology behind it AND the game itself.
Your final, snide comment also shows underlines your sheer ignorance of what the review shows. That a substantial portion of the review consists of negative commentary should give you pause and take stock of what you're accusing me of.
edit - rather than continue this "discussion" further I suggest you give some thought about actually reading the link above AND the review itself. At least then you'll have some insight and understanding of where I'm coming from.
I don't need/want to read the review as I said before. As I've not commented on the review content at all - which clearly you've not taken into account - I simply couldn't be ragging on your work.
Citing professional opinion also isn't going to change my viewpoint on the point I made. If you (or anyone else) thinks that the HL2 engine is great for future adventure games then fine, let's wait and see if anyone takes up this challenge.
And you do come across as a salesman for Valve. That's not a snide comment, more an observation but obviously I'm wrong 'cause you're a review author and I'm just a simpleton reader.
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 4:36pm |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | SJH - yeah, the "+" sign... I didn't say you were wrong to make it a review, I said it would've been better as an article describing HL˛ and its relation to adventures.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 5:18pm |
| Deleted User | .. and I'm starting to agree.
Look, Reckless, the issue I have with you is that simply by criticising JA on the basis of this review being on the site, it's natural to assume that it's simply a "review" and nothing more. Which is wrong and a misrepresentation of its content and the way it's tied in with adventure games. Then you start accusing me of being a "salesperson for Valve" without the knowledge that a lot of their methods are openly criticised in the article itself - which isn't necessarily targeting you as the reader.
How can you criticise the review and Randy's choice to host it if you've no idea what the article says?
If you can't understand what I'm trying to say then I've no idea what I can do to make you, as I think I've made it clear enough. Now that you've resorted to wordplay rather than any coherent form of discussion makes me wonder if you're only repeating things for the sake of argument and nothing more.
edit for Parrot - you made an interesting comment about the inside/outside RE adventure games and other genres. I think this is a resounding negative aspect of some of the community's attitude to other genres where elements are developing that can directly impact or improve our own. When a game of notable content with a far-reaching impact is released, then I think it deserves to be highlighted when elements of it are directly transferable.
At least it forms the basis for a good debate, if nothing more. If the level of digital acting expected from games in general rises, then the expectation would be that adventure games would also benefit from any technology which aids a developers ability to create. In this case, HL2's facial rigging technology is something that's worth looking at and one of the things highlighted in the review. Amongst other things.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 5:26pm |
overcomeSpace Cadet
Posts : 112
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By Reckless (27 DEC 2004 1:30pm)
You are correct, I didn't read the review. I'm 35 and have been playing games of all genres since my teens. I don't really need to 'educated' on what else is about. As for closing my mind... I've also got a Half Life 2 Collector's Edition [the one in a tin] sat on my shelf thanks! It's an evolutionary step as an FPS, nothing miraculous IMO.
The fact that you 'saw it coming' suggests you knew in advance what level of support or not you'd gain from your effort. I personally think it's inappropriate for this site given its focus but as I said, the people behind the site may have other ideas.
HL2 et all are not adventures in my view but younger [than myself] audiences may find adventuring qualities within them given their lack of exposure to the full cycle of games released over the past 20 years. I will continue to play any type of game that I find interesting, each having something to offer a certain gaming mood I may be in. Out of interest I looked at mt currently installed list of games. Out of 35 games only 5 are adventures, not a high number!
And SJH - stop taking things so personally. I will never read your article 'cause I don't care about what it say. I was commenting on why it had appeared on the site. It may be full of great words but everyone on the planet has waxed lyrical about HL2 for 2 years now and quite frankly there isn't anything anybody could say about th game that's remotely unique or particulary interesting. It's a game, a very good one but it should be given the investment and much delayed release and ensuing hype it's had.
Your being silly! THe entire article is about adventure games. Maybe it didn't have to be formatted as a review . . but who cares. If this website had such an elitist attitude that all the reviewers refused to speak about MAJOR gaming breakthroughs in other areas of gaming and how they could affect or enhance the adventure genre, I'd find it stale and boring. If there is any single factor that has a negative effect on the adventure game market, it is this wistful, stubborn and blinded attitude. This refusal to embrace new technologies and possibilities in order to allow the adventure genre to evolve instead of stagnate.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 6:57pm |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SquarejawHero (27 DEC 2004 5:18pm)
edit for Parrot - you made an interesting comment about the inside/outside RE adventure games and other genres. I think this is a resounding negative aspect of some of the community's attitude to other genres where elements are developing that can directly impact or improve our own. When a game of notable content with a far-reaching impact is released, then I think it deserves to be highlighted when elements of it are directly transferable.
At least it forms the basis for a good debate, if nothing more. If the level of digital acting expected from games in general rises, then the expectation would be that adventure games would also benefit from any technology which aids a developers ability to create. In this case, HL2's facial rigging technology is something that's worth looking at and one of the things highlighted in the review. Amongst other things.
All excelent stuff for an article ... I didn't mean it that harsh about the in- and outside, really, but I just like the fact that JA is only adventure: maybe not as 'open', but it's certainly specialised thus. I follow near to all the developments in most genres (save for race- and consolegames), and I do see some that could be useful in the adventure genre. Thus, an article about HL˛'s ways, rather as a review. An article about how adventurers should look abroad their own genre may be welcome as well, but reviewing HL˛ has the effect on some members (from what I can tell) that it's almost an attack on their genre and a forced 'teaching session'. Call it an article, and people will say they agree or not, and in the end think they are wiser than you (sigh...) and feel OK about whatever they think themselves.
Btw, I was lucky with Steam .. 0 problems.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 7:24pm |
| Deleted User | Same here, no problems - we WERE lucky. I get your points btw, but the way the article ended up being written did mean it ended up more a review. It's sad that some people can't look past that, but that's the way of the world!
Truth is, as Reckless did, don't read it if you don't want to. Although if you don't - why feel the need to tell everyone else, and to the detriment of the work of a piece you don't know the contents of?
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 7:26pm |
Terry PenrodGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 6693
Joined: 16 OCT 2004
Location: US, Texas
Status : Offline | .
If all you do is look at hybrids like Omikron, Outcast and Anachronox, you will see how game engines and gameplay elements from different genres can be used to great effect in "adventures". It is perfectly logical to assume that we will see other titles that borrow heavily from this genre in the future and vice versa.
I for one can't wait to play a full 3D super high-res adventure that takes complete advantage of things like advanced physics engines, sophisticated AI and scaling, positional surround sound. The character modeling with precise lip syncing and realistic emoting are getting very very good too and they will add a whole new dimension to adventure game dialog, in-game cut scenes, exploration and immersion.
But it is unlikely we will see many big budget PC adventures using all those terrific new innovations that do NOT also include at least some action. That is simply the way the market has gone and it is the main reason those things were developed. So expect tomorrow's adventures to be a blend of old and new - hopefully done seamlessly in a way that will appeal to fans of traditional adventure games as well as the bigger mainstream audience.
Cheers, Terry
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| 28 DEC 2004 at 8:12pm |
SyberianSpace Cadet
Posts : 134
Joined: 22 OCT 2004
Status : Online | I thought it was a well-written review with an interesting and very pertinent angle, both because of its clear intent and because of my own take on HL2's adventure elements: http://www.justadventure.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=AdvGameDiscuss;action=display;num=1103330132 (long read, beware!). Kudos to JA and the reviewers for their good work and lack of provincialism.
HL2 et all are not adventures in my view but younger [than myself] audiences may find adventuring qualities within them given their lack of exposure to the full cycle of games released over the past 20 years.
I've been playing all kinds of games for over 20 years, and that's precisely why I see adventure elements permeating HL2 to a great degree (and why I note they're largely far better implemented than in most so-called "adventures" proper).
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| 28 DEC 2004 at 10:41pm |
Orange_BratIntergalactic Janitor
Posts : 81
Joined: 4 APR 2004
Status : Online | I read the review and will have to disagree, big time, on the opinion given regarding the voice acting. HL2 has some of the all time great line deliveries of any game. There's not a flat line in the entire thing. It's better than a lot of movies I've seen.
[url=http://www.thedisenfranchised.com/]The Disenfranchised™[/url] - coming later
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