| 24 DEC 2004 at 3:29pm |
AyaGrand Inquisitor
Posts : 7277
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | i will not comment on whether that game belongs to an adventure site or not... the review itself was pretty good, and i enjoyed reading it! liked the commentary thing too!
on a side-note, there are ppl that actually believe that this:
[img]http://www.justadventure.com/reviews/HL2/SShot4_s.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.justadventure.com/reviews/HL2/SShot1_s.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.justadventure.com/reviews/HL2/SShot2_s.jpg[/img]
can be considered an adventure.... : : i rest my case.... :
oh, and smiles @ sjh!
You have gotten the attention of the mysterious lady. She turns to face you. Her face is devoid of any flesh. You are frozen with horror as she begins ripping your body into a bloody mess.
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| 24 DEC 2004 at 3:46pm |
| Deleted User | Thanks Aya! Glad you liked it. I questioned whether a review or an article was better before writing it, as really it's not a good indicator of gameplay and more a study of what technological advancements or elements are worth looking at in relation to adventures.
Happy Christmas all!
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| 24 DEC 2004 at 9:35pm |
mszvPrivate Detective
Posts : 751
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Great review!
Happy Holidays, all.
Regards, mszv
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| 25 DEC 2004 at 4:38pm |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Nice review... the Syberia comment bumped me .. but on the other hand, you are right. Alyx really convinced me of 'being real', and so do most other characters.
The only thing I'd have to comment on, is the game being highly linear, full of scripted events and (oh fear) motionless characters once their scene is ended. Once I was told "time to move on Dr. Freeman," so I thought "or what?" and remained immotionate. The characters looked at me, and after 2 minutes one said "Time to move on Dr. Freeman."
Actually, since I'm replaying it now (even at 'hard' it's quite simple, and I'm not really a FPS-player), I do at times just 'stray from the flock' in doing something which was not intended (standing still, bothering people), and it becomes clear it's really just a very clever interactive movie; you don't notice it's fake unless you start behaving in a way Valve thinks you shouldn't (ie: not doing what characters tell you to do at once). One of the funniest examples of this oddness was a man holding a door closed for people who persuid me. He was bracing there, the door getting bumped at from the other side. For a few minutes - then I got bored of it, walked a few steps further and heard the door explode behind me. Suddenly.
It's funny, since first time I ran through it all, thinking that should I spare 2 seconds, I'd be dead.
The whole scripted events really get very obvious the further you get; kill an n-number of enemies, and a wall is blown away so you can move on to kill n enemies, so a plane crashes, knocking a hole in the wall which allows you to... etc.
Sad example of this kind of behaviours are the Striders, which were so immensively dangerous in the videos - I can remember seeing their "black energy ray"-thing and thinking "gazoots, imagine being on the wrong end of that!". In the end, they do it, but only if you stand at a certain place (ie: scripted event), and they really are just machineguns on legs. Easy to kill, too.
Still, the game was highly enjoyable the first time I played it, it was just the 2nd time reality, scripted events and invisible bounds started to shine through way too much. Ah well. Adventuregames aren't the most re-playable games either, so I rest this case.
Only the music! Gah!
I'd give it an A
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| 25 DEC 2004 at 10:06pm |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | good review............
.....My mod is in the works........a little present for you..........
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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| 26 DEC 2004 at 1:57am |
MikekellyPrivate Detective
Posts : 618
Joined: 25 JUN 2004
Status : Offline |
Great job! Loved the review. Does this review belong on a site that "JUST ADVENTURE" games?
Does it matter to me? NO!
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| 26 DEC 2004 at 8:44am |
STooGE4444, EastCoastDoom...Schattenjger
Posts : 2099
Joined: 15 OCT 2002
Status : Online | +....my dear..........
~rbeeler SVT &&Name's STooGE$$$$ Valpurgius TNT; it's not PLURAL&&[img]http://www.riseaboverecords.com/sleep/image/sleepfront.gif[/img]&&151.Generally speaking Sludge Doomsters are Angry, Gothic doomsters are sad, funeral doomsters are barely breathing, death doomsters are dirty, drunk and dribbling, Stoner Doomsters don't care, drone doomsters are out of it and traditional Doomsters are permanently pissed off, mainly with other doomsters
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| 26 DEC 2004 at 11:05am |
| Deleted User | ...anyone who reads it can actually see it's a critique of the game and what it offers to this genre in terms of technology and inspiration. It talks very little about actual gameplay in terms of shooting - I believe there's about a paragraph?
Please don't drag this particular review into the whole "HL2 is an adventure" argument, as it's really got nothing to do with it.
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| 26 DEC 2004 at 5:19pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Nice review. Actually, I think it's cool that JA can have reviews on games like HL2 just to show how broad-minded everyone is! (It's just not an adventure game..... )
On another note- There seems to be a definite division of 3D action gamer interests that's developed with the release of Halo2. On Xmas, all the males in our family were giving each other Halo2 stuff (I even gave my son a Halo2 watch of all things!). I got the Halo2 game, Xbox live to play it on & a Halo2 guide. And yet, on the other hand are HL2 and Doom3. There isn't enough time in the day for even a kid to get good at both genres or even have an interest in both. It seems that there is a definite console group vs. pc group now!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 26 DEC 2004 at 6:28pm |
| Deleted User | HL2 and Chronicles of Riddick. Forget Doom 3, it's nippy but basic... Riddick challenges the brain.
Wierd considering it's a Vin Diesel license - but I actually got the movie on DVD from my brother for Xmas (as well as the extended Hellboy, aces!) and found it to be one of the most intelligent blockbusters of last year. Taking it's cues from Pitch Black's secondary plot about religion and belief (one of the characters was an Imam) it beats the hell out of pretty much every big budget effects fest I had the misfortune to see over the summer, save Spiderman 2 (heheh and Hellboy). Not bad for a baldy slaphead.
And Halo 2 - as good as it's purported to be?
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| 26 DEC 2004 at 8:25pm |
SirDaveGuild Master
Posts : 4953
Joined: 17 OCT 2002
Location: US
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SquarejawHero (26 DEC 2004 6:27pm)
And Halo 2 - as good as it's purported to be?
Yes it is, but when you come from a PC-based action game background as I did there's a bit of an elitism when it comes to console games: After all, nothing quite matches the skill of keyboard/mouse circle strafing and the use of an X-box controller seems a bit limited in comparison.
But, for a console game Halo 2 is about as good as it gets!
The future ain't what it used to be!
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| 26 DEC 2004 at 8:27pm |
| Deleted User | Great! Now all I have to do is wait two years for the badly optimised and heavily outdated PC version!
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 5:53am |
overcomeSpace Cadet
Posts : 112
Joined: 16 OCT 2002
Status : Online | Excellent commentary! That is great that they are providing the engine (or at least some of it) for mods. If people are creative enough i imagine they could make an adventuregame with this engine.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 6:43am |
Jenny100Guild Master
Posts : 3510
Joined: 12 OCT 2002
Status : Offline | Originally Posted By SirDave (26 DEC 2004 8:25pm)
After all, nothing quite matches the skill of keyboard/mouse circle strafing and the use of an X-box controller seems a bit limited in comparison.
Have you heard about the SmartJoy FRAG adapter?
Adrenaline Vault did a review of it here
http://www.avault.com/hardware/getreview.asp?review=sjfrag
It's for using a keyboard and mouse with games that were made to be used with a gamepad controller.
There are separate versions for the Xbox and for the PS2.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 11:17am |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SirDave (26 DEC 2004 5:19pm)
It seems that there is a definite console group vs. pc group now!
Since the arrival of the XBox there always has been : The Xbox has effected the migration of many games developers to consoles (more so than the PS2 mainly due to technical challenges) meaning a large number of PC games that historically 'excelled' on the platform are typically more "geared" towards the console.
This site is beginning to allow itself to become a generic gaming site. I know the '+' is there but reviewing (and even allowing the review of) games that have zero place in the adventure genre isn't really what I had expected to see. The fact that HL2 may be good or even very good is not being questioned, its presence on this site is! This topic is also nothing to do with 'Adventure Discussion' and so is effectively mis-posted - by the people running the site!
I will not comment on whether that game belongs to an adventure site or not
Unlike Aya, I will comment on the issue as for me it's been a very good thing not to come here and hear/read about the same old stuff that every other gaming site has. If you all want the site to migrate to something more generic then allow this to continue, if not then say something Perhaps the people involved in the site don't care either way or perhaps they do ???
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 11:34am |
| Deleted User | I take offense by the fact it would appear you didn't even READ the review. It was created with the sole intent of bringing to the attention of adventure games players what is happening in other genres that directly affect this one.
There's no point pretending that there isn't anything else out there. Particularly when this game has many, many aspects which outdo most of the games of our own genre when in fact we should be LEADING these factors. That an FPS, no matter how complicated, actually puts it's onus on creating realistic and believeable characters when adventure games, which by rights SHOULD be concentrating on making our virtual actors seem more real (in terms of acting, not just graphics) in games that rely on them (naturally depending on which subgenre of AG's we're talking about), are lagging behind is frankly a little embaressing.
The physical acting of these 3D characters isn't necessarily about the engine either - it's even their physical mannerisms which exude far more care in animation that your modern adventure game. It's a showcase of great voice talent put together with animators which obviously take pride in creating character, not the stilted 3D dolls we've seen in games even as recent as TMOS or Sherlock.
And thats just a small part of what I, and Petter, were trying to do.
I suggest you read it through, properly, first and then think about commenting again. I only mentioned the shooting gameplay towards the end as I felt it less important to adventure gamers. You're missing the point if it isn't about adventure-led discussion and are only looking at things in one dimension.
Not the best quality for someone who plays adventure games.
Rather than discussing the technical aspect of a game like HL2 and what it brings to the gaming world, you see fit to instead close your mind to what it offers and instead complain about its relevance to this site and question it's integrity. Screw the invention, the characterisation, the acting, the immersive and well design 3D architecture... or even how the review is written... lets have a good old whinge instead and misrepresent what we were trying to do!
To be honest I saw it coming. :
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 1:04pm |
| Deleted User | It's a showcase of great voice talent put together with animators which obviously take pride in creating character, not the stilted 3D dolls we've seen in games even as recent as TMOS or Sherlock.
Half Life 2 has been in development for 6 years with a dev budget of 40 million $. In my estimation this is more than all 67 adventure games released in 2004 have spent combined.
While it is true that there is a lot to learn from Half Life 2, and while I don't think money is the soley key to great games, it is only fair to mention that Sherlock and MOS are sitting on the shevles next to a game that cost approximately fourty times as much as the two together.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 1:30pm |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SquarejawHero (27 DEC 2004 11:33am)
I take offense by the fact it would appear you didn't even READ the review...
You are correct, I didn't read the review. I'm 35 and have been playing games of all genres since my teens. I don't really need to 'educated' on what else is about. As for closing my mind... I've also got a Half Life 2 Collector's Edition [the one in a tin] sat on my shelf thanks! It's an evolutionary step as an FPS, nothing miraculous IMO.
The fact that you 'saw it coming' suggests you knew in advance what level of support or not you'd gain from your effort. I personally think it's inappropriate for this site given its focus but as I said, the people behind the site may have other ideas.
HL2 et all are not adventures in my view but younger [than myself] audiences may find adventuring qualities within them given their lack of exposure to the full cycle of games released over the past 20 years. I will continue to play any type of game that I find interesting, each having something to offer a certain gaming mood I may be in. Out of interest I looked at mt currently installed list of games. Out of 35 games only 5 are adventures, not a high number!
And SJH - stop taking things so personally. I will never read your article 'cause I don't care about what it say. I was commenting on why it had appeared on the site. It may be full of great words but everyone on the planet has waxed lyrical about HL2 for 2 years now and quite frankly there isn't anything anybody could say about th game that's remotely unique or particulary interesting. It's a game, a very good one but it should be given the investment and much delayed release and ensuing hype it's had.
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 1:39pm |
| Deleted User | I've mentioned it before, and I'll mention it again. It's not the money when it comes to things like this, it's what goes into the work. Here in the UK the animation industry is really rock bottom and I know a good few people doing jobs who're over qualified for it - the people are OUT there, as is the literature to understand how visual narrative works.
One person I occasionally work with as a storyboard artist is Pete Western. A top class animator and storyboard artist, been in the industry for twenty years and is storyboarding the same project as me and I've been in the industry for coming on four years. I've learnt a lot from him personally just by looking over his boards.
OK, I'm digressing slightly but making a point. If people insist on working in a certain genre or certain area on games which RELY on having a certain quality, why don't they? It's not money. I can offer, and have done for free (although I'm not in a position to do so anymore now), pointers on direction in games. I'm not an animator, but I know of animators who's skills are exceptional working on projects which are, frankly, beneath them. I also know of the snooty nature of the games industry where 3D is everything, but a lot of the time, skill isn't.
Just to note - I'm talking generally here, not pointing fingers. I mainly blame publishers for not having the nous in recognising retrainable talent nor the importance of things such as direction and writing and leaving them secondary to everything else.
You say yourself, good animation doesn't necessarily money and time, it above all takes talent and concentration on the areas required for the game. Looking at Troika's efforts in animation, despite the horrendous bugs, in Vampire is a better example than HL2 which I referred to in the review (unless it got edited out).
I completely understand, through my own personal experience, the problems facing games developers, but I'm talking from a point of view as someone who also sees the issues affecting the games industry insofar as cutting corners, and/or timeframes, and getting things right - especially in a genre where half the games rely on characterisation.
To note - one game which I feel does things correctly is the rotoscoped The Last Express. I find it unfairly put upon graphically in many of the reviews, but it uses it's limited style and animation well through a good design sense and expressive acting. True, it may be drawn-over actors, but essentially it takes keyframe poses but still puts across the emotion required along with some top-notch voice acting. This is far more effective to me than the hands-by-the-side posing I see, or repeated animation, of most other titles.
I understand I'm talking from someone who sees the importance of visuals as well as writing and gameplay/puzzles when others, for whatever reason, place preference to different things. But to me, if an adventure is to truly attract more than a niché audience, it needs to understand how it presents itself as a visual medium and the art of communication to the player. If only in the games which require it.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 1:43pm |
Jeroen StoutSchattenjger
Posts : 2798
Joined: 14 NOV 2003
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SquarejawHero (27 DEC 2004 11:33am)
To be honest I saw it coming. :
You should've made it an article instead of a review, IMO. "There's no point pretending that there isn't anything else out there"... tsk. There is no point in trying to barge the outside into our inside here either. We'll go to GameSpot for the outside. This site is all about the inside.
If you'd made it an article about technological advancements that one day could be used in adventuregames, it would've been better. Now it's just an unrelated review with an educational intention.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 1:47pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By Reckless (27 DEC 2004 1:30pm)
You are correct, I didn't read the review. I'm 35 and have been playing games of all genres since my teens. I don't really need to 'educated' on what else is about. As for closing my mind... I've also got a Half Life 2 Collector's Edition [the one in a tin] sat on my shelf thanks! It's an evolutionary step as an FPS, nothing miraculous IMO.
The fact that you 'saw it coming' suggests you knew in advance what level of support or not you'd gain from your effort. I personally think it's inappropriate for this site given its focus but as I said, the people behind the site may have other ideas.
HL2 et all are not adventures in my view but younger [than myself] audiences may find adventuring qualities within them given their lack of exposure to the full cycle of games released over the past 20 years. I will continue to play any type of game that I find interesting, each having something to offer a certain gaming mood I may be in. Out of interest I looked at mt currently installed list of games. Out of 35 games only 5 are adventures, not a high number!
And SJH - stop taking things so personally. I will never read your article 'cause I don't care about what it say. I was commenting on why it had appeared on the site. It may be full of great words but everyone on the planet has waxed lyrical about HL2 for 2 years now and quite frankly there isn't anything anybody could say about th game that's remotely unique or particulary interesting. It's a game, a very good one but it should be given the investment and much delayed release and ensuing hype it's had.
I will take it personally, mainly as you fit to see comment on a review which is more of an article and anyone that reads this thread beforehand is getting a total misrepresentation of the hard work Petter and I put into it. If you ARE going to comment, then at least give us fair chance and read it before you do so - otherwise anything you say is completely moot.
That I saw this coming is more indictive of the reactive, vocal nature of some of those (actually quite few) in the community. Randy endorsed this review, which is good enough for me, and was informed of its intent from the beginning - in fact, part of the way through it was purely an article, although the nature of what is said dictated that it ended up being more of a review.
You shouldn't see it as indictive of a move away from adventures - recently, there has been highly positive reviews of freeware games which are always well-supported by this site. To say the site is "losing focus" because of a review you haven't even read is unfair on the review itself and the hard work Randy and the others have put into maintaining the integrity of the reportage given to you. It's hardly a general gaming site when even reviews of action games make sure to highlight the interest they have in terms of a completely seperate genre.
So, I'm afraid - yes, I do take it personally... and the reasons above make it very clear why.
edit - as for not being interested in what we have to say, well I'm sorry - that's just rude. You're seeing fit to comment on our review without even reading it - we're not here to educate you personally, but there are others that know NOTHING about it. It's arrogant to think you can dictate what this site does and doesn't do when you're not even giving us a chance in the first place.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 1:52pm |
| Deleted User | Originally Posted By The Parrot (27 DEC 2004 1:42pm)
You should've made it an article instead of a review, IMO. "There's no point pretending that there isn't anything else out there"... tsk. There is no point in trying to barge the outside into our inside here either. We'll go to GameSpot for the outside. This site is all about the inside.
If you'd made it an article about technological advancements that one day could be used in adventuregames, it would've been better. Now it's just an unrelated review with an educational intention.
Hardly.
At least you read it though. And no, when other genres are making advancements far beyond what is required of adventure games, then its only fair to show what's going on. It only ended up a review as there are enough elements, for example its powerful technology which can be used even to create a modification using its editing tools, which are of importance to anyone with an inkling of action in the adventure community. It also shows how a lot of the ingredients we used to see as important have transferred into other areas and even as when viewed through "adventure goggles" has a lot going for it purely as a game.
...and I don't know if you noticed the "plus" sign after Just Adventure. : Check the old reviews - there are far more games reviews of non-adventures that don't even attempt to relate them to adventures.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 2:07pm |
| Deleted User | http://forums.adventuregamers.com/showthread.php?t=5758&page=1&pp=20
Incidentally, there was a great chat going on at Adventure Gamers with Steve Ince offering his views as an adventure developer on the source engine. Some of the comments would possibly prove "inflammatory" over here but there's some great study of the game and some forward thinking as to the engine's application.
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| 27 DEC 2004 at 2:11pm |
RecklessJourneyman
Posts : 962
Joined: 14 NOV 2002
Status : Online | Originally Posted By SquarejawHero (27 DEC 2004 1:46pm)
otherwise anything you say is completely moot. just 'cause I disagree with your [misplaced] effort then don't chuck your toys out the pram. I never even commented on your work, just the presence of it on this site. The technology behind most of the new games support a far more diverse choice of game genre than that applied for the game itself. However, why should they be reviewed under the premise that someone one day may use the Source (or any other) engine for an adventure?
You honestly sound like a salesman for Valve!
[url=http://leisuresuitlarry.dyndns.org/]Leisure Suit Larry Archive Site[/url]&&[url=http://www.adamhearn.co.uk]Hearn Garage[/url]
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