Just Adventure: Adventure Game Discussion - Shouldn't you guys broaden the scope a little?

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Topic: Shouldn't you guys broaden the scope a little?

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All Forums : [Adventure Games Forum] : Adventure Game Discussion > Shouldn't you guys broaden the scope a little?

#26 1 DEC 2004 at 2:57am
Deleted User	*Originally Posted By Hannah (1 DEC 2004 2:48am)* But you did say this. [smiley=raise_eyebrow.gif] Make up your mind. Do you want the JA Forum Adventurers to change their taste in the games they play or do you want the game developers to produce more games that YOU like? : Clue .... if you do a search, you will find that this topic has been done, over and over and over. [smiley=yawn.gif] If you stopped people from posting topics that have been done over and over and over, then this board would be damn near empty... your choice! Clue... if you're not interested in the topic or it bores you then DONT READ IT OR POST IN IT!

#27 1 DEC 2004 at 4:20am
Susan Guild Master Posts : 5485 Joined: 13 OCT 2002 Location: 0 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By GrtZucchini (1 DEC 2004 12:51am)* For some of us who don't have all your smarts, what in the blazes is meant by point & click, platforms, RPG's (I thought that was a rocket propelled grenade), IMO, MMORPGS, FPS, RTS's, indie and LSL:MCL???? We need some sort of adventure gamer's dictionary. Since no one has answered your question yet, I will do my best, and others can fill in the gaps. Many of these acronyms are familiar ones that you will come across on these forums and one of them is used commonly in chatting in general. Point & Click - You sit at your computer moving your mouse around so that the cursor points at whatever you want it to point at. Then you click to perform an action or something when playing a game. Like when you browse a webpage, you typically point and click. In a game you would point to an area on the screen, click, and your character would walk there. Your other alternative would be to use the keyboard, using the up arrow key to make the character walk forward, for example. RPG = Role-Playing Game - Typically a type of game where you choose a role like mage, fighter, or theif and have different skills that your character learns and different weapons depending on the role or class. The Quest for Glory series combines role-playing with adventure. IMO = In My Opinion - Used online in forums for chatting. Faster than actually typing out the words. MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game - The best way to describe this would be one word: Everquest (or Everquest 2). A role-playing game, but players play online with or against each other, usually paying a monthly fee for the service. FPS = First Person Shooter - No adventure whatsoever (that may or may not be biased). You just go around shooting things. oom 3 or Halo 2 are examples. Indie - Refers to a game made by an independent or indie developer. A person or group of people not associated with any big publishing company, or no publishing company. If you got a group of friends together and made your own game, you would be indie developers. LSL:MCL = Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude - A sequel, or rather, follow-up to the delightfully humorous Leisure Suit Larry series of games. I miss my Bubba: 1986 - 2006.
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#28 1 DEC 2004 at 5:03am
Deleted User	*Originally Posted By Hannah (1 DEC 2004 4:20am)* I read she was a yank ..... sort of explains things .......... [smiley=angel_smiley.gif] Unfortunately, I used the same argument... I got out of hospital the day after she did

#29 1 DEC 2004 at 9:19am
Ksandra Schattenjger Posts : 2459 Joined: 2 APR 2003 Status : Online	This has been discussed ad nauseam. As some of the others pointed out, if you broaden the scope of the term 'adventure game' to include every game that could conceivably be considered 'adventurous', it simply becomes meaningless. Imagine if every game where you take on the role of a particular character was described as a 'role-playing game'. No one is denying that many RPGs, shooters etc. are excellent 'adventures' in their own right, but most of us here are more interested in the traditional 'adventure game', i.e. puzzle-based with little or no action. Note that this does not have to mean point-and-click, though many people do have a preference for this type of interface. Whether adventure games should 'evolve' to incorporate new technology (e.g. 3D graphics) is a different issue entirely, and a much more contentious one. Some people here are all for it; others are more cautious. The problem is that some developers have indeed tried to innovate in this way, but so far most of these new adventures have been plagued by major flaws, and have failed to live up to their promise of attracting more gamers to the genre.
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#30 1 DEC 2004 at 9:32am
Deleted User	It could be argued that if adv. games don't "evolve", they'll always be well behind in terms of general gamer interest and made "niché" by its total lack of spark. I've been playing, as has a lot of others, Half Life 2 recently, and Vampire the Masquerade. Aside from some technical hitches from the "source" engine, I've seen a hell of a lot which could be successfully integrated into adventure games, but don't see any development in those areas. Vampires wonderfully responsive discussions and options in the dialogue, replete with excellent real-time acting, are all in 3D realtime and would take up far too much space in 2D or FMV. The fluidity of the conversation and reactions are really quite clever. Back to the lack of spark... well, we know it's all very well for some people, but personally I'm into good games. And lately, there are very few worth playing as GAMES in the adv. genre. I think there's rapidly becoming a massive gap between gaming and adventures to the point where adventures, being as basic in gameplay as they are, just aren't getting the attention in important areas by developers they need in order to be truly successful. Some recent releases are plagued by showstopping bugs and distracting gameplay techniques which you just shouldn't see in such a well-worn type of presentation - when a 2d 3rd person game has the same issues as another from 5, if not 10, years ago I wonder where the time went. Something needs to be done... what it is, I'm not willing to stick my neck out and say. But there are issues that developers don't appear to be taking seriously.

#31 1 DEC 2004 at 10:14am
Jeroen Stout Schattenjger Posts : 2798 Joined: 14 NOV 2003 Status : Online	What's the point of broading the scope when we've just narrowed the scope to a single thing: adventures. This is an adventure site. There are plenty of game-sites around which have a scope the size of the galaxy. RPG-adventure. FPS-adventure. We're adventure-adventure, because.. we like being that. I don't want to grow, really. : I'm glad to see some real adventurers here. And 'evolve or die' - we could evolve into a FPS site, but that's not the point of this site. If adventures are gone, IMO so would JA+. But they won't be gone, since there once was a golden era of adventures To JSH; Yup, Source could be used for puzzling! I loved the (2...) mini-puzzles I've encountered so far .. think they could do something great. Still, no Source engine in the world could beat good style.. which is missing in a wholelot of games as well. I like HL² for it's style, not the FPS part .. though shooting zombies is enjoyable, once you get used to it. Bloody heard-crabs though
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#32 1 DEC 2004 at 3:20pm
Roger Charlie Intergalactic Janitor Posts : 41 Joined: 21 FEB 2003 Status : Online	*Originally Posted By SquarejawHero (1 DEC 2004 12:56am)* I'm just going to sit here with a big dopey smile on my face. But I won't say why. Snigger. Ah but you see, are you happy with the fact that developers rehash the same interface/ideas without really trying to push it to the next level, whatever that may be, we won't know until someone tries it. Remember, the vikings KNEW the world was flat until they found out it wasn't!
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#33 1 DEC 2004 at 3:26pm
Deleted User	Due to various issues, being it disability or inability to take 3D motion or complex action, "pure" adventure games aren't going to really change from what they are now. I think what's really need is a good rethink about how these games are made and more concentration on the presentation. 3rd person adventures have been around years, to a better quality nearly ten years ago, and developers are now creating games that wouldn't stand up to those titles. There are moments of innovation (Return to Mysterious Island's use of the inventory as the main puzzle element as an example) and moves towards a better style of presentation, but something needs to be done. Unfortunately until it is done I'm afraid no-one's really got the answer to what "it" is.

#34 1 DEC 2004 at 4:47pm
Terry Penrod Grand Inquisitor Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline	. On a related side note - In discussions like this one, I always like to mention a very important segment of the human race - all those who simply can not handle action games or prefer not to play them for any reason. These people include all those with innate limitations to eyesight, response time and basic physical coordination that make it extremely difficult for them to participant in any form of fast-paced action gaming. They additionally include all people who simply prefer slow paced, non-action entertainment, mental challenges over physical ones, avid readers who prefer thoughtful endeavors and many who just lack the time, money and/or interest necessary for properly researching, buying and maintaining a high-end 3D gaming system of any kind. As it relates more specifically to classic style PC adventures - Their core fans often prefer SP-only games and have little or no interest in modding or any form of MP gaming. Add all the above traits together for both sexes in all age groups and you get quite a large segment of the human race at any given time. A small percentage of them are being reached by current marketing / advertising efforts. But as time progresses and this still relativley new technology becomes as commoin as TV and phones, millions more will begin to discover our little hobby. When they do, it is virtually guaranteed that some smart gamecos will tailor more games that appeal just to them. As evidenced by the enormous, sustained popularity of games like The Sims and the Roller Coaster Tycoon series, titles that have very simple interfaces and easy controls along with reasonably low system requirements and a broad appeal to many people of all ages, this trend is already in motion. As the current fan base expands, so too will the scope of game types that use these basic design elements. One very logical direction they will take is to add complete in-game stories with well developed characters, plenty of good dialog, some humor and even a few puzzles. In other words, future adventure games for the masses who fit the above broad profile. Cheers, Terry
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#35 1 DEC 2004 at 6:41pm
Jeroen Stout Schattenjger Posts : 2798 Joined: 14 NOV 2003 Status : Online	*Originally Posted By Roger Charlie (1 DEC 2004 3:19pm)* Ah but you see, are you happy with the fact that developers rehash the same interface/ideas without really trying to push it to the next level, whatever that may be, we won't know until someone tries it. It has worked for shooters, so far. Although, I have to admit, one major change in shooters has been that you need a new graphical card with every new game these days.
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#36 1 DEC 2004 at 6:53pm
colpet Schattenjger Posts : 1630 Joined: 12 APR 2003 Status : Offline	In discussions like this one, I always like to mention a very important segment of the human race - all those who simply can not handle action games or prefer not to play them for any reason. Amen. I am in this group, and appreciate that there are precious few Adventure gaming forums that talk about the games I like to play. All of the forums I frequent (Gameboomers, JA+, Adventuregamers, and Mystery Manor) have sections where you can talk about the other types of games, but thank goodness the focus is on good ol' point and click adventures. And as many said before, there are oodles of other gaming sites to go to to discuss your passion. Indeed if the type of games I like to play are dying off, all the more reason to have forums devoted to these games, so we can hear about any new games in development. Occasionally visiting Uru Live (KI 0063722 .&&
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#37 1 DEC 2004 at 8:34pm
bdecked Schattenjger Posts : 1620 Joined: 14 OCT 2011 Status : Online	*Originally Posted By Terry_Penrod (1 DEC 2004 4:46pm)* .In discussions like this one, I always like to mention a very important segment of the human race.... all people who simply prefer slow paced, non-action entertainment, mental challenges over physical ones, avid readers who prefer thoughtful endeavors Well said, Terry!!! I'd also like to remind people that this population of adventure-game-lovers is VASTLY outnumbered by those who DO prefer other types of non-adventure type games (just as game-sites dedicated to other types of games vastly outnumber the sites that deal exclusively with adventure games.) By opening up this site to "non-adventure game" discussions, we thus risk losing the population that we very much appeal to already. Personally, I think for these reasons alone it's VERY important to maintain the integrity of places like JA that are dedicated to this adventure-game-fan population, and to be necessarily protective of them. In any case, there is a place to discuss other games on this very site (the "Other Games" section).... which is pretty generous, since I doubt very many Halo2 forums have "Adventure game" threads open to them.
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#38 1 DEC 2004 at 8:34pm
Jenny100 Guild Master Posts : 3510 Joined: 12 OCT 2002 Status : Offline	*Originally Posted By Roger Charlie (1 DEC 2004 3:19pm)* ...are you happy with the fact that developers rehash the same interface/ideas without really trying to push it to the next level, whatever that may be, we won't know until someone tries it. Shoot, I don't want to have to learn a new interface for every single game I play. You know what was a major PITA? - playing Uru after playing BS3. My reflexes were all bassackwards and half the time my mind would be in camera-relative mode and half the time in character-relative mode. It took me most of the game to develop the reflexes to play BS3, and my very next keyboard game I have to unlearn them and relearn something else. Yecch!! Getting creative with the interface is BAD unless the game has a new feature that requires some modification. Return to Mysterious Island is an example where a modification was made to the inventory system which worked well. But most of the interface was not radically different from what we've seen in numerous other point-and-click node-with-panning games. I have no interest in games where someone is trying to "push something to the next level, whatever that is" for its own sake. I don't want to spend the whole game learning the ^%$#! interface. It's why any sensible action game will allow you to remap the keys (or gamepad buttons) to what you're used to.
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#39 1 DEC 2004 at 11:37pm
Deleted User	Pushing aside the obvious arguments I can and have already debated in the past... It has worked for shooters, so far. Although, I have to admit, one major change in shooters has been that you need a new graphical card with every new game these days. You can play games like D3, HL2 and Far Cry with very low end graphics cards successfully. They may not look "the part" but the core gameplay and "fun" factor is still there - in fact every attempt is made nowadays (with a few exceptions, EQ2 for example) to make sure they run on low end systems. Put simply, you can't expect to play the latest games to their expected presentation level if you're using 5 year old hardware, but developers know that there are people still intent on holding on to old computers and have options that work in even these titles. A Geforce 4 MX440 can play these games to a degree, but they can be played. HL2 is very well optimised for many different levels of system. Unfortunately the audio causes stuttering and FPS issues, although Valve are sorting that out. I hope.

#40 2 DEC 2004 at 5:11am
Terry Penrod Grand Inquisitor Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline	. Yes, most modern FPS game engines are quite scaleable for a wide range of systems. They also allow for various degrees of difficulty and have very flexible, customizable control schemes. In those departments, shooters are light years ahead of adventures games. They easily outpace them in all facets of 3D graphics, advanced sound components, and of course in custom modding and MP modes. However, the FPS genre, with very few exceptions like FPS RPG hybrids (i.e.; Deus Ex and System Shock 2), is fairly static as far as basic gameplay goes. There are a certain number of variations for both SP and MP such as solo / deathmatch, coop and squad based tactical. Plus there are stealth games that shun the typical frag-at-all-costs style of play. There is also a good variety of settings from highly realistic in the past, present and future as well as sci-fi, horror and fantasy. But within that seemingly large range of elements is a pretty narrow set of common traits. For instance, as different as Clive Barker's Undying is from Serious Sam, you still just run around killing almost anything that moves using the same first person perspective and the same basic controls. Same goes for Doom 3 and Far Cry ,etc., etc., etc. A few titles have tried to integrate meaningful dialog and some light puzzle solving. But those are really just transitional sequences in between an endless series of kill-or-be-killed levels. That is why I prefer full featured CRPGs these days. They offer the widest scope of interesting gamplay options along with excellent original stories, very well developed characters and good dialog, enough puzzles to keep you sharp, a very deep set of player character and party creation / development paths plus a staggering array of combat situtations / solutions. You can create almost any kind of character and custom build full parties with a huge mix of personalities and abilties. Then you can choose almost any set of strategies to get through an amazing number of side quests and the main plot. You can alternately use diplomacy / charm, stealth / thieving and/or straight-up battle tactics. But just in combat, there are hundreds of options at every turn to combine every type of skill in the book. The better CRPGs also now provide superb custom modding tools and both SP and MP modes to offer a great deal of extended value. Some titles like Morrowind also include seamlessly fluid on-the-fly first to third person camera views in real time 3D. Others allow for a full range of combat controls from real time to turn based and difficulty level adjustments to suit every situtation as it arises in virtually any order for any level of player experience. This scaling system even allows for novices to change settings at any point along the way for extra challenges as they grow more comfortable with the rules. So if you want the widwest assortment of choices in a single genre, RPGs cover the gambit. Cheers, Terry
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#41 2 DEC 2004 at 8:47am
Deleted User	You should try Vampire: Bloodlines and come back again. BTW I disagree the FPS genre is pretty much the same from game to game, particularly in single player... MP I wouldn't want to introduce to the conversation, as our genre isn't. Although the interface is the same for each title, each one varies drastically between each game... Call of Duty requires well-timed reloads on antique guns and has a natural feel to its response time, and needs you to work with friendly AI in order to achieve your goals. Unreal Tournament is a total twitch-fest, requiring massive amounts of dexterity and intimate knowledge of each skillset for how each vastly different gun works. For example, Doom 3 is nothing like Far Cry. At least Far Cry requires more than a modicum of lateral thinking and situational puzzle solving... and Far Cry is nothing like Rainbow Six, where it's not "shoot anything that moves" and target identity is required before you pull the trigger - which sounds simple, but when you're tense then it's quite easy to shoot a hostage! My point is, FPS' are far more complicated than most AG players would know and it's not fair to hold them up as an example which doesn't change it's core gameplay... it doesn't change, but it certainly varies wildly. My prior point really had no bearing on the conversation other than pointing something out about engines... and personally, I feel it's unfair to look at FPS' for static components and say "well, this genre doesn't change so why should we"... well, looking at recent titles, then I can see why. As I said before, whatever the change is isn't at my liberty to say, but it has to be something.

#42 2 DEC 2004 at 10:17am
Jeroen Stout Schattenjger Posts : 2798 Joined: 14 NOV 2003 Status : Online	: I knew you'd get back on that 'new graphical card' thing, and that's fair I was more meaning that it's mostly graphics that advance, there is little difference in gameplay. Though HL² has the gravity gun or the ant-lion pheromones, which are a great innovation to the game. So it does happen. And I know FPS differ in between - oi, so do adventures. Seek differences between Myst IV to Syberia and you can phone your boss you won't be at work tomorrow (or in my case, not at the physics test in 3 minutes. Yickes!)
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#43 2 DEC 2004 at 3:46pm
Terry Penrod Grand Inquisitor Posts : 6693 Joined: 16 OCT 2004 Location: US, Texas Status : Offline	. *Originally Posted By SquarejawHero (2 DEC 2004 8:47am)* You should try Vampire: Bloodlines and come back again. BTW I disagree the FPS genre is pretty much the same from game to game, particularly in single player... MP I wouldn't want to introduce to the conversation, as our genre isn't. Although the interface is the same for each title, each one varies drastically between each game... Call of Duty requires well-timed reloads on antique guns and has a natural feel to its response time, and needs you to work with friendly AI in order to achieve your goals. Unreal Tournament is a total twitch-fest, requiring massive amounts of dexterity and intimate knowledge of each skillset for how each vastly different gun works. For example, Doom 3 is nothing like Far Cry. At least Far Cry requires more than a modicum of lateral thinking and situational puzzle solving... and Far Cry is nothing like Rainbow Six, where it's not "shoot anything that moves" and target identity is required before you pull the trigger - which sounds simple, but when you're tense then it's quite easy to shoot a hostage! My point is, FPS' are far more complicated than most AG players would know and it's not fair to hold them up as an example which doesn't change it's core gameplay... it doesn't change, but it certainly varies wildly. My prior point really had no bearing on the conversation other than pointing something out about engines... and personally, I feel it's unfair to look at FPS' for static components and say "well, this genre doesn't change so why should we"... well, looking at recent titles, then I can see why. As I said before, whatever the change is isn't at my liberty to say, but it has to be something. Assuming your above reply was more or less in response to my last post - Having played virtually all of them over the years (except for a few of the very latest titles still sitting here unopened), I'm well aware of the subtle differences between individual FPS games. That's why I included a basic list of the gameplay styles, themes and distinct sub-categories for both SP and MP as well as FPS RPG hybrids. But in the end, the primary mission of every shooter ever made is to kill or be killed. The only exceptions have been a handful of pure stealth titles - which I also mentioned. There are also some individual missions within "shooters" that require stealthly tactics or other subtle variations on non-violent solutions. Otherwise, FPS are for shooting from the first person perspective and they all share the same basic control scheme - just like the genre name implies. Cheers, Terry P.S. For anyone here that does not already know, Vampire: Bloodlines is a RPG not a shooter. It uses a highly modified version of Valve's new Half-Life 2 Source Engine. But it is based on the old P&P RPG series by White Wolf Publishing and clearly falls in a separate genre. .
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#44 4 DEC 2004 at 10:46am
Mikekelly Private Detective Posts : 612 Joined: 25 JUN 2004 Status : Offline	I've been playing "adventure" games for over 20 years. I've NEVER had a backlog as bad as I have today. I've got OVER 40 adventure games waiting to be played. There are many REALLY good games getting released all the time, like "Return to Mysterious Island." 10 years ago, I'd wait months for a good adventure game to be released - and paid $70 bucks for it too. Today, great adventure games are being released at $19.95.
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